Catholic and Loving it!

Mac McLernon said...

ROFL...
(arf, arf!)

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Copernicus said...

"is here in bread and wine for me"

For "in" read "in form of", I guess. It's clumsy rather than wilfully heretical (which doesn't make it alright.)

What's the connection between Boyce & Stanley and Marty Haugen then? They're fairly different in terms of their output: Haugen, to my mind, is rather better attuned to the scriptural basis of liturgical texts, and to the ritual function of liturgical music.

Or are you just one of those people - forgive me putting it bluntly - who likes to join in the sneering without being all that closely acquainted with what you're objecting to? The blogosphere has rather too many of those, and one gets the impression they only listen to each other.

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James said...

My experience of Boyce and Stanley comes from my university days when the music at chaplaincy was arranged by the lovely Zosia and Lisa. Lisa hailed from Birmingham and always had fairly recent Boyce and Stanley books to haunt us with. My knowledge of Marty Haugen is limited to what I find in Hymns Old and New e.g. Gather Us In and the other one.

For me, the link is that they both are alive and still producing music that for various reasons I am unimpressed by. Marty fills his songs with snide digs at the authority of the Church and far too many instances of the word 'us'. Boyce and Stanley produce the archetypal mediocre "nobody would buy it if it wasn't Christian".

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Copernicus said...

Well, if you'll allow me to carry on in the blunt vein, maybe it's a little lacking in charity to condemn on the basis of such a limited acquaintance? That's if you really only know one or two songs by Marty Haugen. The "singing about us" trope against Haugen is something trotted out by conservative Americans, but the two things to remember are (i) there are factions in the American Catholic church who genuinely seem to believe that "love one another" doesn't apply to them - left and right can be rather like a couple in the throes of a particularly painful marital breakdown; and (ii) the accusation against Haugen has little or no basis in fact: many of his best works are psalm settings or items of ritual music. People who rail against him often seem to be prompted by aesthetic fastidiousness - because his music isn't plainchant or Palestrina - but behind that there seems to be a reticence to accept that the song of the assembly, and song in the vernacular, are good things in the sight of God. And that reticence, of course, goes squarely against the belief of the Church expressed in Sacrosanctum Concilium.

I could go on! But it's not my blog. :-)

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rachel said...

well i think boyce and stanley are great and they are also amazing people, just come back from lourdes where they done all the songs like "sweet heart of jesus" etc etc and bet half of you critising them dont know them so how about leave something nice??? considering as you all know about them are probs all christian and followers of christ and to me some of you are not being very christian.

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Ella said...

I think James is not saying that he does not like Boyce and Stanley but that when every hymn you sing every Sunday is by them it is an overkill.

In our movements in the Church world of music we come across many people who pick the music not based on what the hymn is actually saying. When praising in a Church we are praising God and particularly in Bread of Life the fact that they neglect Christ's real presence is a bit jaw dropping as it is the entire essence of being there!

Musicians and Song writers write their messages not just in the Church but in the world. The message is what they are saying to the people who listen... it is not about getting to know the people.

Whether or not I like Bob Dylan is not about Bob Dylan himself but about what he is saying in his songs.

In the Church we worship God and the songs should be sung accordingly we don't sing them because we like the songwriters.

Everybody is so focused on making the music of the Church modern that they fail to see a lot of the good that is already there. You don't need to add to something that is already good.

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Greg Hartigan said...

Here's my views on this discussion:
a) whatever our musical taste we would all have to admit that sung worship (whatever music style and however new/old the lyrics are) in most (but not all) RC churches in the UK each Sunday is pitiful
b) perhaps this is part of a wider problem in the RC church in the UK: falling mass attendance etc.
c) let's not be under any illusion that the mere presence or absence of a particular musical style or that the age of the hymns being sung will improve the decline in mass attendance
d) I really cannot understand the self-appointed guardians of the liturgy with the fixation that "Old/Latin is better"
e) Likewise I really cannot understand the "trail blazers" with their fixation that "new is better" - they only have to look at the disastrous way in which the liturgical reforms of Vatican 2 (I love Vatican 2 teaching and wished it had been followed through) were implemented in the UK to know that "new" does not necessarily lead to "better" (does anyone else hate "Colours of Day"? - apologies to the composer but I think the song's popularity far exceeds it theological value - I remember thinking so as a 13 year old teaching it to myself in 1977)
d) Answer: some strong leadership at a local Parish level - including worship leaders/music directors who are musically proficient and who can lead people (a lot of them are interpersonally challenged to say the least or have been in that position for so long that they are impervious to change), generous support (in terms of resources and time from their Parish Priest), ensuring the theologically value (relative to the singer)of both old and new hymns, using varied sounds and styles to accommodate the needs of all Parishioners (inc some Latin singing when approp).
I could go on and on but let me emphasise the most important thing in Mass is to have a heart to worship. One's personal relationship with God (both in and out of Mass) is of infinite more value than a Mass which ticks all the aesthetic boxes. Finally could I appeal to bloggers on this site to drop the sneering attitude - it is unChristian and it does nothing for the unity of the body of Christ. I have yet to meet (in the flesh) a blogger who lived up to the "swagger" of their online persona - I suspect that what they lack in terms of personal confidence they more than make up for in their online written strops. Love to you all.

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