Catholic and Loving it!

  • Home
  • Archive
  • Links
  • RSS Subscribe

Ella and James Preece are a Catholic couple living in Kingston Upon Hull in Yorkshire in the UK. This is our blog.

  • ella@lovingit.co.uk
  • james@lovingit.co.uk
  • RSS Subscribe
  • Email Updates

sprites header-background page-background sidebar-backgrounds footer-background body-background footer-background-repeater

What do Catholics believe?

Should Catholic priests be allowed to marry?

Blogged by James Preece on 27th June 2009

One of the lessons I learned last time I was on the television is how difficult it is to get a reasoned argument across in a televised debate. These debates are not about making good arguments that stand up to rigorous inspection but rather about trying not to come across like some sort of nutter. Anyhow, given that I probably won't have time to say half the things I would like on TV, I figure I might as well write most of them here so that people can find them if they google me while watching (quite a lot of people did last time).

It all depends what you mean by Love?

The first thing most people think of when it comes to love is the strength of feeling. When you like someone, you like them. When you love someone, you really, really, really like them. That's what "love" has come to mean these days. In fact, if we look at what we expect from love we will see that this definition is rather lacking.

What if I told you that I had fallen in love with a stunningly beautiful girl, but that recently she was involved in an accident which left her disfigured and ugly. After the accident I just didn't love he anymore. I think you would be justified in saying that maybe I didn't really love the girl, I just loved her body. Or what if I told you I had fallen in love with a really rich girl but that now her money has ran out I just don't love her anymore. I think you would be justified in saying that maybe I didn't love the girl, I just loved her money.

It seems like a paradox. Any practical reason you can give for falling in love - be it beautiful eyes, kind personality, sense of humour or whatever. Any practical reason you can give for falling in love seems to undermine the love itself. We say that we love the person but really we just love something about the person, some attribute or characteristic. For love to have a reason at all seems utilitarian and wrong, as if we love the other person only for what they can do for us.

Real love means wanting the best for the other person no matter what. As Chesterton puts it: "Love means loving the unlovable" and as our Lord put it: "If you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?"

The Purpose of Marriage

We know then that eartly human love is in some way fundamentally flawed. We fall in love with a person for a reason, because we like their jokes or their personality or (let's be honest) their breasts. Yet at the same time we know that real love ought not to require a reason and at the very least, it ought to continue long after the reason has ceased to exist.

Marriage is an attempt to take our flawed human attempt at love, the one that thrives on good times, health, wealth, happiness and beauty. To take our flawed attempt at love and turn it in to that perfect, divine love that continues to love long after the reasons for loving have passed. In the well known marriage vows we promise to love "for better for worse" and "for richer for poorer" and "in sickness or in health". We make a promise to love that perfect love that loves no matter what.

Divine love is very hard to do, impossible in fact, which is why many marriages end in divorce. It is impossible to be perfect without the grace of God which is why in Christian marriage we like to get God involved from the beginning.

Real Love Means Sacrifice

When Christians talk about love and sacrifice, many people think it's a nice platitude but it's actually a very practical fact. Real love means wanting what is best for the other person, wanting what is best for the other person means always putting that person first above ourselves. That means denying ourselves for that person. If we love a person fully, that means denying ourselves fully which means giving up our life for that person.

This is the final goal of marriage: To give our life to the other person. This is why St Paul writes: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" St Paul does not use Christ merely as example of great love.. e.g Christ loves the Church a lot so Husbands should love their wives a lot. No, St Paul uses he example of the way Christ loves, by giving himself up.

Once a man has given himself to his wife, once he has vowed to love her and to put her first in all things, once he has denied his very life and given it to her. What has he left? It's really very simple: He has absolutely nothing left. His life is not his own, he has promised it to another.

So Should Catholic Priests be Allowed to Marry?

Bear in mind that actually, there are married priests. The rules about married clergy are just that, rules - they are not unquestionable infallible teachings of the Church. In fact, Priests from other rites are allowed to marry. The Church here in the latin rite could change her rules and allow priests to marry but I don't think she should.

My reasons is very simple: The priesthood is an entirely different kind of giving up of the self for God. How can a man give himself up to two different persons at the same time?

But it isn't in the Bible!

No, it isn't. Nowhere does it say "priests cannot be married". But also nowhere does it say "a man cannot marry two women at the same time".

Polygamy is not expressly forbidden in the scriptures, the Christian view that a man should only have one wife is a development based upon our understanding of marriage as the gift of oneself to another person, a gift that by it's very nature excludes the possibility of giving that gift to another.

In my view, priestly celibacy falls in the same area. As our understanding of what it means to enter in to marriage has developed, as our understanding of what it means to be a priest has developed, it has become more and more apparent that the two are not easily combined.

But what about the shortage of priests?

What about it? Men are not willing to dedicate their lives to God, so if we let them become priests without fully dedicating their lives to God then maybe they will?

Fixing a shortage of priests by allowing marriage has been tried by the Anglican Communion - it hasn't worked spectacularly well. Perhaps because whether priests can marry is not at the heart of the problem at all.

The crisis, if there is one, is one of spiritual deafness

But what about sex abuse?

There is simply no evidence whatsoever that priestly celibacy in any way "causes" sex abuse. There is however plenty of evidence that people from all kinds can end up sexual abusers - school teachers, police officers, step fathers etc. See here and here.

Incidentally, I take the problem of priestly abuse very seriously and have written more about it here.

Rate this blogentry:+-

  • RSS Subscribe
  • Email Updates

Make us happy...

  •  Tweet This!
  •  Share via Facebook
  •  Bookmark
  •  Digg it!

Reader Comments

Kathleen Lundquist said...

This is great, James - hope you get the chance to say it.

Also, in case you're not aware of this and someone challenges you about Eastern Rite Catholics allowing married priests (and the dispensations the Pope has granted to certain married Protestant ministers who have converted to Catholicism), here are some facts about that:

- While priests are allowed to be married in the Eastern Rite, bishops are chosen solely from the ranks of unmarried priests (they are often monks).

- Their rule is that the marital status of a man preparing for the priesthood will be "fixed" at the time of his ordination. That is, if he is not already married, he cannot get married after ordination. If he is married and his wife should die, he cannot remarry.

Both the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic Churches follow this discipline, and the Pope has required that those receiving his dispensation to be married priests in the Western (Latin) rite observe it.

Hope this is helpful to you and your viewers.

+-

Reply to Kathleen Lundquist

antonia said...

err....just one correction....PRIESTS were never, and are never, allowed to marry, not even in Eastern Rites.
But MARRIED MEN may become Priests.

So once a Priest, you can never marry. But if you are already married then you could become a Priest.


(or so my Parish Priest always taught me. I assume he's right...)

+-

Reply to antonia

antonia said...

oh wait, I just read the comment from Kathleen above mine. I think I said pretty much what she said!

God Bless & good luck!

xx

+-

Reply to antonia

Paul Green said...

Is that what you call being on TV?

+-

Reply to Paul Green

epsilon said...

Well done James - you did the right thing by letting the priests, Fr John Flynn and Fr Stephen Maughan present the case so eloquently, and the young man thinking of the priesthood, Tom(?) - all a credit to the Church. I'm sure they have given a lot of people something to ponder upon. Such a contrast from formerfatherjoe and his companion clairedoublebarrelled mid-Atlantic "After the Church" - insignificant knowalls!

+-

Reply to epsilon

Fr. John Abberton said...

Some years ago, when the "scandals" had led some commentators to ask if celibacy was the main issue, I decided to (privately) renew my oath of celibacy. I also decided to wear a gold ring - on the "wedding finger" of the left hand. When asked if priests should marry I could then answer, "I am - to the Church". To me the answer is simple; celibacy is a commitment - a life-long commitment - to one woman - the Church. There are so many other things that follow. The celibate priest is more able to be a sign of Christ the Bridegroom, and the priesthood is (we hope and pray) more easily seen as a nuptual gift to the Church. The priest's body is given in love to the Church. This links up with the Eucharist of course. I am now thinking that there is an application of the Theology of the Body to the celibate priesthood.

+-

Reply to Fr. John Abberton

zosia said...

I should put you in touch with my priest - he is an Anglican convert, and is a married Catholic priest...
hope the four of you are well
Zx

+-

Reply to zosia

Agellius said...

Excellent, James. Good points and very well made.

+-

Reply to Agellius

Rev Daniel said...

I am surprised that all of you agree on this subject! Did you know that 39 Popes were married? Did you know that priests married for 11 hundred years? Do you remember that Peter's mother in law met Jesus?

Do you know that it has been scientifically proven that unmarried priests (let's be honest, some of them don't practice chastity at all!) are more prone to sexual abuses? Do you know what the priests in Ireland did to the young and innocent children?

I'm the one who bases his opinions on FACTS and not on centuries of brainwashing.

+-

Reply to Rev Daniel

James said...

Daniel, Did you know that for 11 hundred years it wasn't settled which books are in the Bible? Do you therefore suggest we maintain that situation indefinitely?

Nobody is denying that priestly celibacy is something that has developed in the Church over time or that in the past the Church allowed married priests. What we are saying is that it has become clear over the last 11 hundred years that marriage and the priesthood are about as compatible as marriage and another marriage. God seems to have allowed polygamy, polygamous people have become great saints and patriarchs, yet we have developed our understanding of marriage to the point where we now see polygamy as incompatible with "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her"

As for your comments about it being "scientifically proven" that unmarried priests are more prone to sexual abuses, this is simply false. Studies have shown that children are at greater risk from school teachers and their own relatives. See here.

+-

Reply to James

berenike said...

(James, don't get carried away. It's compatible with marriage, being a priest is not entering religion. Even if the current practice in e.g. the Byzantine rite is a relaxation, it's a perfectly kosher and entirely valid way of going about things.)

Rev Daniel:
Didn't know about the 39 popes - which ones? Am tres intrigued. References? (no really, am not being sarcastic)

"Do you know that it has been scientifically proven that unmarried priests (let's be honest, some of them don't practice chastity at all!) are more prone to sexual abuses? Do you know what the priests in Ireland did to the young and innocent children?"

I think a lot of the Irish men you are referring to were in fact not priests. Just to be precise. I've read a good part of the report, I don't see celibacy figuring as a cause of the abuse. Isn't it the case that the majority of child abuse is by family members, and especially by stepfathers? And let's face it, a lot of people don't keep their marriage vows. So marriage should be abolished. It's clearly a bad thing, because people don't stick to it.

+-

Reply to berenike

James said...

"James, don't get carried away."

Sorry...

+-

Reply to James

Leave a Comment:

Name: (required)

Email: (required - will not be displayed)

Website: (optional)

Comment: Allowed tags: <a>,<strong>,<em>,<b>,<i>,<blockquote>


Year for Priests

Recent Comments

Hestor

Here goes John with his trad bashing again... *yawn*One can see here that your pitiful desperation to vilify...

Gregorty the Eremite

This is very nice! Just one little comment: would you be so kind as to unravel the following sentence a bit for me? I...

Ella

Oh - That does sound a bit puzzling dosn't it!What I mean is through baptism our original sin is wiped away and we are...

Gregory the Eremite

Thanks Ella! That's clearer now. Am I right in thinking then that you were using "justified" in the everyday sense in...

Paul Priest

http://thatthebonesyouhavecrushedmaythrill.blogspot.com/2010/03/negotiation-is-not-collusion.html

Ceramic Wedding Band

To the Blessed Virgin Prayer for England

O Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and our most gentle Queen and Mother, look down in mercy upon England thy "Dowry" and upon us all who greatly hope and trust in thee.

By thee it was that Jesus our Saviour and our hope was given unto the world; and He has given thee to us that we might hope still more.

Plead for us thy children, whom thou didst receive and accept at the foot of the cross.

O sorrowful Mother! intercede for our separated brethren, that with us in the one true fold they may be united to the supreme Shepherd, the Vicar of thy Son.

Pray for us all, dear Mother, that by faith fruitful in good works we may all deserve to see and praise God, together with thee, in our heavenly home.

Amen.

Couple's Prayer

O God, our heavenly Father, protect and bless us. Deepen and strengthen our love for each other day by day.

Grant that by thy mercy, neither of us may ever say one unkind word to the other. Forgive and correct our faults, and make us constantly to forgive one another should one of us unconsciously hurt the other.

Make us and keep us sound and well in body, alert in mind, tender in heart, and devout in spirit. O Lord, grant us each to rise to the other's best. Then, we pray thee, add to our common life such virtues as only thou canst give.

And so, O Father, consecrate our life and love completely to thy worship, and to the service of all about us, especially those whom thou hast appointed us to serve, that we may always stand before thee in happiness and peace; through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen.

Babies Bedtime Prayer

Father, thankyou for all the good things that have happened to me today.

Thankyou for keeping me safe and well, thankyou for fun and laughter with my friends, thank you for what I have learned, thank you for all those that I love.

Help us all to sleep soundly tonight.

Amen.

Tag Cloud

  • Abortion
  • Ad Orientem
  • Advent
  • Advent Calendar
  • All That I Am
  • Archbishop Vincent Nichols
  • Art
  • B3ta
  • Babies
  • Beauty
  • Big Questions
  • Bishop Terence Drainey
  • cakes
  • Cartoons
  • Cathedrals
  • Catholic Education Services
  • Catholic Schools
  • Catholic Youth Work
  • Christmas
  • Comics
  • Condoms
  • Confession
  • Connexions
  • Contraception
  • CYMFed
  • Death
  • Digital Things
  • Evangelisation
  • Feasts and Seasons Book
  • Flash Games
  • Fr Patrick Day
  • Fr William Massie
  • GK Chesterton
  • Gregorian Chant
  • Holiness
  • Humanae Vitae
  • Joanna Bogle
  • Kingston Upon Hull
  • Latin
  • Lego
  • Lent
  • Leona
  • Liturgical Abuse
  • Liturgy
  • LiveChastely
  • Mark Shea
  • Marriage
  • Marriage Care
  • Married Love
  • Middlesbrough Cathedral
  • Music
  • National Youth Sunday
  • Oona Stannard
  • Optical Illusions
  • Parenthood
  • Pope Benedict XVI
  • Prayer
  • Puns
  • Reredos
  • Richard Dawkins
  • Roman Catholic Diocese of Middlesbrough
  • Sacraments
  • Saint Marys College Hull
  • Sex Education
  • Terry Prendergast
  • The Tablet
  • Traditionalists
  • Vocations
  • Who do you say I am?
  • Why Bother
  • York
  • Youth Sunday
  • YouTube

Saint Michael - Pray For Us!

Saint Mary - Pray For Us!

We Love Teh Berfs! We Love Teh Little Lambses!

GK Chesterton!

We Love Popple!

Saint Claire of Assisi - Pray For Us! Saint Francis of Assisi - Pray For Us!

We Love Zelda!

St Jerome - Pray For Us!