+19

Pat said...

No,James, you're not being paranoid at all. Add to all the things you mentioned the Westminster Diocese Soho 'gay' Masses scandal. Archbishop Nichols has been given rock-solid evidence of the dissent being promoted at these Masses, but does . . . nothing. Also, he allows Fr Timothy Radcliffe, who has publicly stated that he 'doesn't know' if Church teaching on sex before marriage, homosexuality and women's ordination is right - to address CYMFed and another youth group at the Cathedral - something which occurred recently. Keep up the good work.

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Nicolas Bellord said...

Are you being paranoid?

You list a number of things which are very disturbing. I could add one or two more but won't!

However your post about the Oratory is even more disturbing and I am inclined to wonder at that point whether the person who suggested that there has been some internal conflict and accusations is not closer to the truth. It does sound more plausible but I suspect it will be many decades before we discover the truth. However whatever the immediate cause of this unhappy affair three very useful commentators have been, hopefully only temporarily, silenced.

The problem is that you see a conspiracy in all this and conspiracy theories are very easily brushed aside. It is probable that the people you see as conspirators are quite unaware that they are engaged in a conspiracy. They are either too dim, too lazy or too uninterested to see the rights or wrongs of what they probably regard as very trivial actions. Not seeing themselves as being in the wrong they just pooh pooh your concerns and being rather dim or just relying on their position of power they do not engage in rational discussion.

But there is a conspiracy and the Chief Conspirator is the Devil. He works through the people we might regard as the conspirators. So long as they do want he wants - often very trivial actions but cumulative in their effect - he does not give a damn about their motives. You need to read Georges Bernanos on the subject - he brilliantly explains in his novels how the Devil works.

As an example think about the manufacturers of gas ovens for cremation who supplied them for the holocaust. If you were a manufacturer of such I do not think you would query if you were asked to supply one to a prison. It is when you start to be asked for several and are continually encouraged to improve their efficiency with a system of baffles that you ought to start thinking. But you don't. Are you part of the conspiracy? You are certainly helping the Devil's work and he does not give a damn as to what your conscience did or did not tell you.

All we can do is pray and be very careful of what we do and be as cunning as serpents.

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Kevin said...

I have been a member of The Oratory Congregation for very many years and have worked closely with the Fathers at various times in the past. Whilst Nicholas Bellord starts his second paragraph promisingly, he falls into the same 'trap' as the rumour mongers that have plagued the Oratory since someone came up with the completely unfounded idea that the three sent away were sent away to silence them. This is nothing more than a rumour, and a malicious one at that - not only for the Church in this country, but also, and particularly for the Fathers of the Oratory that remain; and also no good is done for those who are absent. The implication by all this speculation is that those who are left there at the moment are not outspoken, or commentators on the various issues. In fact, if anything it is the other way round! Certainly, the most outspoken over many years, and by far the greatest supporter of SPUC (John Smeaton take note) is the Parish Priest, Fr Guy Nicholl's who does the Newsletter and who has frequently written and preached about the issues referred to. (And I will add that Bro Lewis has not yet even been in a position to be a 'commentator' 'outspoken' or not). All the Fathers and Brothers of the Oratory are of one mind on these issues. To my mind, the problem with conspiracy theories is that they are NOT brushed aside and people who repeat them and other rumours may well be indulging in lies - they certainly do not know the truth and therefore are much more likely to be doing the devil's work, even if they think they are being altruistic! As Newman himself, who suffered so much from rumour, speculation and false accusation said: "A lie is half-way around the world before truth has got his boots on".

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John said...

Well Kevin aren't you just the lapdog?
It's not what you say - it's what you do or don't do.

If one dares to contradict a Bishop or Cardinal or question their superior self gifted knowledge, one is immediately silenced, moved or branded fundamentalist.

I think the trap you have fallen into is "Blind Faith".

It is very clear that to maintain government funding and keep a lid on things our church leaders (i.e. the churchmen) have abdicated all truths and in the PC process misled and misinformed many.

Now the challenge to you is very clear. Do you abandon the truth? Do you turn away? Do you close your eyes? Do you remain a sheep?

Or do you stand up for TRUTH -even if it is in a majority of 1.

Just so you understand, "being of one mind" means doing what you are told - even when what you are told is wrong.

I have years of experience of working with churchmen in the political and media world. They would burn you at the stake if they could - should you ever challenge their intellect, position, power or money. History is littered with Catholics who have suffered at their hands.

As for your comments on people doing the devils work you are right - there are plenty of churchmen doing that - all the way to Rome.

Are you really suggesting that good Catholics should stay silent as our Church disintegrates at breakneck speed and our Truths are abandoned simply to maintain a position of power, money and influence?

If you do then you are crazy !!

Our church leaders need to answer a very important question - What is Truth?

A man who tells lies hides the truth.
A Man who tells half lies has forgotten where truth is.

They don't even tell half lies.

One final question you, and those like you, must ask yourself is why is PB16 making a State visit at this time? What value does it have? Do you even understand the difference between this and PJP2's visit?

Do you even understand what is happening to our Faith, Church, Young people, Families, Married men and women, Do you care?

You know the churchmen are not God, - they only work for him.

This is the beginning of the end. They will be held accountable.

If B16 is not going to come here and speak out against the demise of married life and support for gay and civil partnerships; speak out against the abuse of our children through a sex education policy endorsed by the Bishops; Speak out against the culture of death; Speak out against the abuse of our Catholic children and the peddling of an anti life culture; Speak out that Gay Priests, Bishops and Cardinals must come out and GET OUT; Speak out and defend the rights of parents as the primary educators, protectors and teachers of their children; Speak out and defend life absolutely from the moment of CONCEPTION;
SPEAK OUT AND TELL HIS BISHOPS AND CARDINALS TO GET INTO LINE OR GET OUT;

If he will not say these things - then he might as well STAY AT HOME.

Finally, I was speaking with a very very prominent protestant minister who said "you know there was a time you could always depend on the Catholic Church to uphold Family, Marriage and Defend Life - but no more" .

That says everything !!

John

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ROSIE said...

WELL STATED JOHN

B16 SHOULD SPEAK UP OR STAY IN ROME.

AS FOR MR. NICHOLS HE SHOULD GO GET A JOB AND STOP LIVING OFF VULNERABLE CATHOLICS

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Sapientia said...

First of all, James, you are not being at all paranoid. Unfortunately that doesn't mean that CES, Marriage Care, the Catholic Bishops' Conference, and the Blair Foundation are not out to get us, because they are!

I agree totally with Kevin when he says that all the Fathers and Brothers of the Oratory are of one mind on the things that matter, and that Brother Lewis Berry (who after all has only recently returned from his lengthy training in Rome) has hardly been in a position to be outspoken about anything yet.

It is very sad that the visit of the Holy Father and the beatification of our beloved cardinal, both events which we have been looking forward to for so long, appear to have led to this dreadful situation at the Birmingham Oratory. One can only speculate as to what Pope Benedict himself knows or has been told. After all, the beatification of Newman is so important to him that he has decided to break his own rule and conduct the ceremony himself.

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Nicolas Bellord said...

I must apologise if my comment was not clear.

Kevin, who I take to be a member of the Birmingham Oratory, says I have fallen into the same trap as the "rumour mongers" who have spread malicious rumours. I hope he is not accusing me of spreading malicious rumours.

I have said that it is seems more plausible that the three were sent away to distant monasteries because of some internal problem involving accusations. I did not say that they were sent away in order to silence them. I had understood that they were the authors of a very good statement in the recent controversy over the Catholic Education Service and Sex Education. My understanding was based on John Smeaton's post on the subject. Please correct me if my understanding was incorrect.

Whilst the motive for sending them away in no way may have been to silence them it inevitably has that effect. It would be useful if we could be told the real reason. Clergy do occupy public positions and if they are sent away from their posts it would seem to be sensible for the laity to be told why. Otherwise you have this kind of speculation.

Further I do not see that there was any implication that those left behind are outspoken or not. I had no idea whether they were or not and am grateful for Kevin clarifying the position.

In speaking about conspiracy theories I was referring to the several issues in James's recap - not just to the Oratory. Kevin seems to suggest that conspiracy theorists are always wrong i.e. there are never any conspiracies. I am afraid I cannot accept that. I believe that the Devil has a conspiracy!

Kevin then goes on to say that those who have theories about conspiracies "certainly do not know the truth and and therefore are much more likely to be doing the devil's work, even if they think they are being altruistic!". That again is a statement that I cannot accept. They may not know the whole truth but they may have discovered part of the truth and what they have discovered may suggest a conspiracy. Are we, the laity, supposed to shut up at that point? If Kevin is suggesting that I or others have lied perhaps he could explain what he is referring to. I resent the innuendo.

Perhaps I should explain where I am coming from. I spent some 40 years as a Solicitor in a firm which advised Bishops, clergy and religious. I regarded it as a lay vocation. Occasionally one was inspired; sometimes though one had to swallow hard. Dealing with paedophilia was a particularly challenging episode. Mistakes were sometimes made in the way the Church handled these cases. The Nolan report was an over-reaction to those mistakes. I do not find the whisking away of priests from their parishes without any explanation a particularly good idea - guilty until proved innocent - and even then the laity are not told what their priest has been found innocent of.

Since I have retired ten years ago I have conducted two campaigns - one in respect of Equitable Life and the other in respect of the Hospital of St John & St Elizabeth - our leading "Catholic" Hospital. In respect of Equitable Life I have always believed there was a conspiracy to deceive and cover-up by the Treasury. I had suspicions and only a few facts. Was I in a position of certainly not knowing the truth and thus telling lies in voicing my concerns? Well just read the EQUI report of the European Parliament in response to my petition to them and then read the 3,000 pages of the Parliamentary Ombudsman's report - again written as a result of my briefing them. Fortunately the secular world does have some mechanisms for getting at the truth.

Unfortunately the Church seems to have none in respect of the conduct of the clergy however much it bangs on about the TRUTH in other spheres. It seems to have learnt nothing from the paedophile scandal as to how to handle the concerns of the laity.

I understand that the Church teaches that direct abortion is a grave sin and co-operating in abortion is also a grave sin. So when the Hospital of St John & St Elizabeth proposed introducing into its midst a GP practice under contract to facilitate abortions and provide the full range of contraceptive practices I was concerned. When I pointed this out to our relevant clerical authorities was I telling lies? I was certainly brushed aside and hundred of thousands of Catholic money was spent on lawyers trying to stop me from making "scurrilous allegations" (as one cleric put it). Yet the Charity Commission concluded in their inquiry that it was the Hospital that had told the lies.

Well now the GP practice is installed. The Code of Ethics which used to govern the Hospital has been amended to drop the former prohibition on referring for abortions, sex-change operations are allowed as are several other things which I thought contrary to Church teaching. This new permissive Code has the blessing of Cardinal Cormac and the Papal Nuncio. We are told it has the blessing of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. So is Evangelium Vitae a dead letter in the eyes of the CDF? Or is somebody telling porkies? I have written again and again to Cardinal Bertone and Cardinal Levada about this but never even had the courtesy of an acknowledgement. Christian charity or just rightfully ignoring the lies, scurrilous allegations and conspiracy theories which should be brushed aside?

Come on Kevin wake up and smell the coffee!

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Kevin said...

The point about the rumour is that it is just that. What proof does anyone have that "they (plural) were the authors of a very good statement" in the recent controversy. ONE of the Fathers did this article - not all three. (But All the Fathers had discussed the issue (not just one, or two or three if we include the Brother). Any one of the 6 priests at the Oratory could have written it. So the theory that they have been sent away to silence them is blown out of the water straight away. This is what happens when people choose to go down the 'conspiracy' route. These ARE rumours, started by some party who has an interest in discrediting the Church and the Oratory - because that IS the effect. I know for a fact that no one, not John Smeaton nor Tom Ward nor anyone else bothered to contact the Oratory to question this rumour before they went into print repeating it. With regard to Nicholas' comment that "It would be useful if we could be told the real reason" - useful perhaps, but why should the Oratory give details of internal matters? The Devil indeed has a conspiracy. That is the whole point! And the best way he has to create the small ones for his bigger plan is by temptation to those who like the idea of conspiracies rather than attempting to get to the truth by asking the persons involved who have now become subject to and victims of the lies - namely The Oratory Fathers. James seems pleased that his post even reached Ruth Gledhill - and he thinks, the Vatican. I hope he doesn't live to regret this. All I can say is that given the demonic pasting the Oratory and its very good priests are receiving, especially those getting the flack for all this, they must be doing something right!

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Nicolas Bellord said...

Evidently I have stepped into a hornet's nest which is not a good idea when one is at a long distance! I was merely answering James Preece's question as to whether he was paranoid. I agree with him in being worried about the several items in his recap but I thought he had gone a bit too far, as far as the Oratory were concerned, as there seemed to be a plausible alternative explanation albeit coming from an anonymous source.

I see that John Smeaton said that the two "Thoughts of the Week" on the Oratory website were the work of Father Philip Cleevely. I do not know what evidence he had for saying that as the website does not give the name of the author. Kevin's reply is a bit ambiguous as to whether the author was one of the three sent away. Father Cleevely being one of those three.

Where I do have a problem is the suggestion that anyone who thinks there is a conspiracy in some situation or other is necessarily not in possession of any truth and is necessarily lying and not interested in the truth.

Kevin asks why should the Oratory give details of internal matters? . There is no obligation to do so but I would have thought it prudent to do so in this case. Being sent away to another monastery is an extreme measure and in my not inconsiderable experience in these matters suggests a grave situation often as not of a sexual nature. I am afraid in the present climate of scandal in the Church this is the kind of thing people just jump to a conclusion on. On this occasion some people have jumped to a different, less plausible, conclusion. I would have thought it wise to say in general terms what the problem was e.g. frictions and misunderstandings between members of the Congregation which needed resolution by a period of separation, prayer and reflection. Something on those lines would have spiked the kinds of speculation that have taken place that Kevin describes as demonic.

I think the laity in a Parish are entitled to know however embarassing or private it might seem. After all if my wife suddenly disappeared from my house and all I said was that I had sent here to the North of Scotland for a period of reflection I think one or two eyebrows would be raised!

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Policraticus said...

It has been said that all the Fathers at the Oratory are and have a proven record of being solidly pro-life. As far as can be deduced from the blogging - no one is disputing that. As to what denotes 'silence' or being 'silenced' in respect of the THREE who were asked to go on indefinite 'retreat' - one might well ask the question; If they have not been silenced or instructed not to say anything or remain incommunicado then why are we not seeing a continuation of the excellent articles, comments and reflections on the Newman cause website? After all, one would imagine that a place of retreat and contemplation would aid the spirits and intellect of these fine priests untrammelled by their normal parochial duties [and yes it is bizarre that the Archivist and Asst Archivist are not on site in the lead up to the beatification] to produce writings that are even more inspiring, utterly faithful to Newman and Catholic truth for which the public both Catholic and non-Catholic legitimately hunger. This has nothing to do with what normally constitutes paranoia but a straight question requiring a straight answer!

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Eveleyn Steward said...

There is no conspiracy - it's just the tale of four men whose misfortune is brought about not by some great vice or depravity but by some error or human frailty. This whole sad affair is an internal problem centered around personalites, that escalated, and was no doubt intensified by the media spotlight on the Oratory.

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Sapientia said...

I have to say I am not aware of any cliques at the Oratory - maybe I am just not very perceptive. I think Policraticus has put his finger on it - whatever the intention, the former Provost and the three other Oratorians who have been sent on retreat have to all intents and purposes been silenced, and at the very time when their thoughts and reflections on the beatification would have been a valuable antidote to the worrying reports of the various demonic forces seeking to influence the papal visit. Eveleyn Steward may be very well informed about the reasons for their exile, but I would like to know how reliable her source of information is.

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Eveyln Steward said...

Sapientia, I can't reveal confidences, but it is from a well respected religious who is in contact with one of the four. Of course, the speculation and conspiracy theories were inevtiable after the fiasco of a cover up story for Fr Chavasse's departure last year. I am sure several months apart will allow blood to cool, and reason to assume its seat.

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Policraticus said...

Newman had a favourite motto: 'Give me the facts' and no patience with what he called 'wanton mistakes'. 'I call them wanton because a man should not assert things which he does not know. He finds a statement will not go on three legs so from his imagination he adds a fourth.'
The idle speculators in the blogospehere may well be guilty of what Newman describes but 'wanton mistakes' could certainly NOT be something of which the Fathers of the Oratory might be accused and amnong these DEFINITELY not the THREE who have been sent away. Let us pray that on this Solemnity of the Sacred Heart whose blood poured fourth from his side that it is not so much their blood which must 'cool' down but perhaps the forces outside of the Oratory which saw fit to deprive three good men of the comfort of their home and community.

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Hestor said...

The provost of the Birmingham Oratory should contact the Apostolic visitor and tell him that is an occasion of scandal for the parishioners (and all those who support the Birmingham Oratory) that they are kept in the lurk as to the fate of these three Oratorians.

I am sure some canon lawyers can also be used to discuss the legality of the sentences imposed on them too.

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kate said...

'..they are kept in the lurk...

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James said...

PLEASE NOTE

I have just removed several comments from this thread. I provide the ability to leave comments so that people can comment on what I have blogged. Not so that people can make personal attacks on each other.

Please don't resume where you left off.

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Basil Roberson said...

I understand that the person who made the decision to send the three members of the Birmingham Oratory away was the current Provost of the London Oratory, Very Rev. Ignatius Harrison, acting with delegated authority of the Visitor.

Perhaps people who want to know about the Birmingham priests and brothers should make enquiries to Ignatius Harrison.

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Hestor said...

Was Fr. Ignatius Harrison acting as visitor to the Birmingham Oratory? This is news to me.

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Basil Roberson said...

No one has said Ignatius Harrison was Visitor. The Visitor if Felix Sellden from the Vienna Oratory.

Ignatius Harrion was acting as delegate of the Visitation and made the decicision regarding the three members of the Birmingham House.

May I suggest you write to him at the Brompton Oratory, London, SW7 2RP

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Evelyn Steward said...

Well we all know that there is no love lost between the London and Birmingham Oratories. It's quite concerning to think that Ignatius Harrison could have made that decision under delegated authority.

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Hestor said...

Do you have any evidence to substantiate such a comment?

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Sapientia said...

Very worrying to hear from Evelyn that there is no love lost between the Birmingham and London Oratories, especially as she has said in an earlier post that the source of her information is a well-respected religious who is in contact with one of the Birmingham Four. The extradition of Fr Philip, Fr Dermot and Br Lewis would appear in that case to be the spiritual equivalent of a miscarriage of justice, with the Provost of the London Oratory already predisposed to punish them simply for being attached to the Birmingham Oratory. Are there any canon lawyers around with an informed opinion?

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Hestor said...

The onus is on Evelyn to provide the evidence for such an accusation, which I have doubt as to the veracity. All the Oratories in a given country are independent of each other (as stipulated in their universal constitution) as far as the daily running of the Oratorian house is concerned.

I cannot believe that the provost of the London Oratory would be so vindictive as to do banish someone merely because of what Oratory they happen to be associated with.

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Evelyn Steward said...

Hestor, I think that the tensions between the Birmingham and London Oratories go back as far as Newman and Faber. The London Oratory has always had a reputation for being more rigorous. I certainly recall Fr Michael Napier, and he was barking. The fact that Fr Felix delegated what is in effect a penal decision, to the London Oratory, suggests he has no idea of the complexties involved. I certainly feel that a miscarriage of justice has occured. If this were a secular matter there would certainly be grounds for judicial review on the grounds of procedural impropriety. Sadly, I don't know whether such provisions are made in the 1983 Code of Canon Law.

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Michael said...

I'm with Hestor on this. I'd like to see some evidence, before any more spurious allegations are made.

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Sapientia said...

Evelyn, I think we were under the impression that you had some contemporary evidence of a rift between the Birmingham and London Oratories. Can you provide a comment from your source who is in contact with one of the priests concerned? Failing that I cannot see any reason why the Apostolic Visitor should not have appointed the Provost of the London Oratory as his delegate.

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Basil Roberson said...

I also understand that the Birmingham fathers actually did ask for someone else to be delegate of the Visitation for Birmingham but that no one could be found to accept.

It may, or indeed may not, be worth remembering that the London Oratory is itself under the Visitation with Fr Robert Byrne of Oxford as delegate.

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Liberal Traditionalist said...

Sorry to jump in folks but there appears to be a bit of unhelpful speculation and innuendo creeping-in. The Fathers and Faithful at the Birmingham Oratory need our thoughts and our prayers and probably not much more than that!

“Visitations” to Oratories are always happening – that’s what the Apostolic Delegate does for a living – a visit to an Oratory shouldn’t be compared to a “Visitation” in the sense of the recent unfortunate events in Ireland.

Fr. Michael Napier RIP while being elected for numerous terms as Provost of the London Oratory was also, for a long period of time, the Apostolic Delegate. One can find a more charitable set of comments in the 1996 obituary from “The Independent.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-the-rev-michael-napier-1362175.html

If your written Italian is up to speed, the low-down on how it all works is all there on the Congregation’s website:-

http://www.oratoriosanfilippo.org/delegatio.html

and

http://www.oratoriosanfilippo.org/deputatio.html

Frs. Byrne and Harrison both have some constitutional responsibilities above and beyond London and Oxford and nothing should be read-into anything. Fr. Joel Warden of Brooklyn is visiting Oxford in a few weeks time; does anyone really want to read anything into that?

From where I sit, there is no bad blood between London and Birmingham; if this was the case, why are the Fathers in London building a Newman Chapel? The next conspiracy theory to emerge will probably be that “factions within the Birmingham Oratory” got the Bishops Conference to print the negative comments about Father Faber in the Papal Visit Brochure.

It’s perhaps unfortunate that the constitutional independence of each oratory restricts movement between the three UK houses (even to preach or to celebrate the mass.)

If ever there was a time for silent reflection and for our prayers for the Fathers and Faithful in Birmingham, it must be round about now.

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John said...

I will gladly give you a consultation, as need to see a doctor. You are a very confused person.

There is no such thing as a Liberal Traditionalist.

When did you start having these delusions?

I won't waste my time praying for you because you are beyond help.

Have you ever thought about joining the Scientologists?

John

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Richard Reeves said...

I think it's fair to say that Cardinal Newman found Faber to be a thorn in his side. Hence the long and bitter dispute between the Birmingham and London Oratories which began in 1855, and was only partially resolved when Cardinal Newman travelled to Rome and begged Pope Pius IX to give London a seperate foundation brief. He didn't want to be associated in any way with Faber and the Ultramontines.

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Basil Roberson said...

'Liberal Traditionalist' appears to misinformed about visits and visitations.

No doubt Fr. Joel from Brooklyn is going to be visiting the Oxford Oratory just as anyone else might do but this is not a visitation in the context of what has happened at Birmingham and the focus of this post.

Frs. Ignatius Harrison and Robert Byrne have an official capacity as delegates of the Visitation and as sanctioned representatives of the Oratorian Confederation. This is very different to someone just 'visiting' in a private capacity. Parishoners at both Birmigham and London are aware that their respective Oratories are still subject to, as yet still open, Visitations.

As I stated in my first comment the easiest thing for anyone concerned about what has happened at Birmingham is to write to Very Rev Ignatius Harrison.

Thank you 'Liberal Traditionalist' for the link to Michael Napier's obituary - memories of the days of the 'Gold Standard', much missed.

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John said...

3 Good Men who spoke the truth and the Bishops and ArchBishop do not want their consciences jogged. So shut them up and if you can - get rid of them. The silence of the truth - but the truth cannot be silenced! Would they burn them at the stake if they still could? I think yes !!

It's wake up big time !!

Now it is very evident that VN will write every word that B16 has to say - whilst on his state visit.

And VN made a point of telling these 3 Good Men what would happen to them, when they questioned him on certain matters. A spiteful, vindictive and misguided Archbishop? Yea they do exist.

I am sure that great attention to detail will be paid and that there will be no mention of the protection of life from the moment of Conception or the defence of the child pre implanted embryo;
nor will anything be said about the primacy of parents to educate, defend and teach their children;
nor will there be anything said against the governments sex education policy in Catholic schools - facilitated by the Bishops;
nor will one word be said against the civil partnership bill or in support of marriage between a man and a women;
and God forbid that anything be said to upset the gay lobby - who were consulted by the Bishops representative to see what needed to be done to quieten them when B16 is here.
(strange one that - the Bishops didn't even ask Catholics would they like to ask B16 to support marriage of a man and woman)

Am I to understand that B16 will also meet with CoE gay bishops and women bishops? - Who arranged that and what is the forward agenda?

Now lets cut to the chase.

Its about money and power - that's why it is a State visit!

Is B16 VN's dummy or will he put on some black shoes, step from the shadow and give Catholics (note the big C) a clear and direct message affirming the TRUTH's of the Gospel?

My heart says yes, my head says a resounding NO. Why?
Because years of working with them in the political and media world and seeing what exactly they are capable of doing, especially when money and funding is in the frame, makes it clear that its: "Politics my boy - just Politics".

Anyone want to take a bet?

John

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Laurence Coventry said...

As an Anglican with a background largely in the Southern hemisphere, and with a Catholic wife, I find myself between all stools. I am, with you, expected to sing hymns confirming me as a blasphemer for failing to believe Marian Dogma while across the road I am expected to take Communion from a homosexual.
Eastern Orthodoxy never burned at the stake as far as I know. Your difference must stem from the arrogance of personal infallibility. Catholic martyrs in the UK are said to have numbered 400 over 200 years. That egregious Dominican, Torquemada, presided over 2000 burnings in Spain in 15 years, 70 times the rate of English Catholic Martyrs, not 70 times 7,fortunately. He inspired Drake to burn Cadiz.

However saintly a martyr Campion was,it is inconceivable that, as the senior English Jesuit when that organistion became the second phase driving engine of the Inquisition,he could have been landed for any other purpose than to head the Inquisition after a successful coup against Elizabeth.

Without faith in mortal man's infallibility I am free,not of respect for sacrificial lives, but of automatic obeisance to autocratic hierarchy.
There is something rotten in the State of Birmingham Oratory if I can believe John Smeaton's report of the acute dichotomy in Valero's remarks over time. The Catholic Church continues to suffer fresh revelations on the mismanagement of the sex scandal, which has become an albatross in regard to the secular triumph derived from it in areas of general morality.The silencing and exile of the Birmingham 3 smells of the Lubianka and cannot be allowed to fester in public perception without further disaster.

The real task before the Pope is not to be distracted by the local hierarchy and to stand firm on all the thorny issues of public morality.

My two major disappointments with the
present Pope are his feeling that he could not support Paleologus to the hilt on an obvious platitude and the appointment of Laverda to CDF.

Your banner on Christ bringing a sword might well be quoted by Pentecostalist Pastor Terry Jones. It is not merely that it is unwise to poke a lion with a stick, but rather that he has exposed that the Emperor has no clothes, in that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim,only a backsliding one. Where are the vehement Muslim majority country protests against 9/11? The Koran and 9/11 are umbilical and this is a matter where the Catholic Church will also have to grasp the nettle.

I was delighted that Rowan Williams got a flea in his ear from Uganda Anglicans.

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Charlie Gracie said...

Well, I have to say that your certainty is strong. And that is my difficulty. As a strong Catholic, I proclaim my liberal views and pray and hope that the many liberal Catholics who would like to see equality for homosexual poeple through marriage, blessed by the community of faith, as they are by God, are joined by others. I am not homosexual and have been married for 24 years, go to Mass (mostly) weekly and have many friends of the same view alongside many of the other view in Church.

Certainty, despite its obvious attractions, is the enemy of truth too often. We do need to reclaim the fundamentals of the faith; these are love of God and love of each other. As society changes and develops, so the community of faith has to. Often we, as Catholics, have been ahead of the wave; on this, we are behind. Not to worry - we will catch up one day, please God. With a push!

Thanks for your thoughts and your ear. God Bless

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