Stuart Reid says I've lost it...

Blogged by James Preece on 2nd August 2010

Stuart Reid has some nice things to say about me in his Catholic Herald blog, but he also think's I've lost it on the Birmingham three.

James Preece is in many ways an admirable young man, and he clearly loves the Church. [...] Many will think that it was wrong to exclude him from Catholic Voices, the team set up to prepare the public for the Pope’s visit. But he seems to have lost it as far as the Birmingham Oratory is concerned. He is very, very cross. Consider this:

“Unfortunately, when you are three humble holy men standing in the path of Archbishop Nichols and his plan for an all encompassing Church where anybody and everybody can believe whatever they like … then you tend to get squashed.”

It is an extraordinary charge. The Archbishop may have been derelict in certain areas — some find him wanting in his media statements on sex education and contraception – but nothing can justify the accusation that he is plotting to destroy the Church (for that would be the result of his “plan” for a Church ”where everybody can believe whatever they like”). It rather looks as though Mr Preece has been carried away by his emotions.

[link]

Hold on a moment... "nothing can justify the accusation that he is plotting to destroy the Church"... when did I say that?

I did say that Archbishop Nichols has a plan for "an all encompassing Church where anybody and everybody can believe whatever they like" because there is plenty of evidence for it and I agree with Stuart that the result of this plan will be the destruction of the Church in England and Wales.

But I don't think Archbishop Nichols is intentionally planning to destroy the Church. I think he genuinely thinks that re-jigging the odd teaching here or there is a good way to get more people through the door.

The Birmingham Three were outspoken defenders of the family and they were in the perfect position to defend the Church on all sorts of issues. Brother Lewis Berry was running the Newman Cause website. Fr Philip Cleevely was writing articles and now they are both silenced.

Who is speaking for the Oratory? Who is managing the Newman Cause website? Who is "working with" Fr Cleevely on articles and publishing them under his own name?

Jack Valero - and who pays Jack Valero? The Bishop's Conference: Vincent Nichols and friends.

So for the next few weeks it will be Jack Valero on the radio, Jack Valero on the TV (or Jack Valero's Catholic Voices team), Jack Valero in the newspapers. He will say nothing that would put Vincent Nichol's nose out of joint.

Because that is what he is being paid to do.

Very, very cross? Yeah.

Guilty as charged.

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+16

Corrie1978 said...

Stuart Reid is a likeable old cove, but he does have a knack for getting things wrong. Not long ago he described Peter Tatchell as "a very nice man, by the way"; and more recently he wrote that it was unlikely that the Pope had been celebrating private Masses in the Extraordinary Form. Although I've never met Peter Tatchell, I don't think I'll be taking Mr Reid's word for his niceness. And I know for a fact that the Pope has been celebrating his private Masses in the Extraordinary Form. Much of what Mr Reid says has to be taken with a shovel load of salt.

Tom said...

Would be interested to learn how you "know for a fact that the Pope has been celebrating his private Masses in the Extraordainary Form". I hope that he does so, but have no way of knowing that it is a fact.

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Richard Reeves said...

James, That you are attracting this kind of unjustified criticism is clearly a sign that you are doing the right thing. The priest bloggers are keeping a low profile, and so it falls on your young shoulders to champion the innocence of their colleagues,and to call for transparency. In this you have shown a wisdom beyond your years.

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Birmingham Oratory parishioner said...

James - complacency and cynicism are the great temptations of old age, to which poor Stuart Reid appears to have succumbed totally.

His advice to Oratory parents to smile, tell their children to "leave it to Mummy and Daddy", that it is all a bit too complicated for them and nothing to worry about or lose sleep over is a pretty accurate summing up of the pastoral style of Eccleston Square.

He recommends temperance and calm.

Meanwhile two priests and a brother, universally agreed to be good and holy men, are treated worse than paedophiles.

I am far too middle-aged to be called a "young firebrand" but may God save me from the temptation to settle down into a state of "calm temperance" in the face of such injustice.

On the one hand we see the Catholic Education Service and its ecclesiastical masters pimping Catholic children in their Catholic classrooms in their eagerness to accept the latest pornographic sex education initiative of government, and on the other hand we see three men who defended those children sent into exile for their pains.

"Hissing and spitting"? No Mr. Reid: your hearing aid probably needs adjusting. It is a roar of rage that is not going to go away until we see justice done.

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Mary said...

Let's try a different stance: Just suppose James, that you have been entirely misled by the 'Oratory Parishioners' who have started all this. Just suppose that they DO have axes to grind with the Fathers for entirely personal reasons. At least one of your 'friends' falls into that category. Why don't we assume that it is the Fathers of the Oratory that have told the truth all along: that Fr Dermot and Fr Philip and Bro Lewis are away for entirely internal matters: that they are not necessarily the "three humble Holy Men" that you have stated, but ordinary clergy with flaws, and good points, like others? Let us assume that it is completely false to propose that they have been sent away for the reasons you and others have proposed. After all, ALL the Oratory Fathers are outspoken men on these matters; and publically, at least two still there have been MORE so and MORE actively than the three 'sent away'. There hasn't been a single objective FACT to support your claims which are therefore hypothetical. The FACTS are that the Oratorians have been absolutely consistent in saying that the 3 were sent away for INTERNAL reasons. What you are doing is calling all THESE good - and probably holy men - liars, as you have Jack Valero. You and others of your commentators have pilloried the Fathers of the Oratory still in Birmingham, and Fr Ignatius Harrison and Fr Felix Seldon for their effective "silence" , (and indeed have pilloried members of the Bishop's Conference). It is indeed entirely compatible with what the Fathers HAVE said as you have reported, and in Fr Felix's letter which appeared in your blog comments, that the discretion on the Fathers' part may well be that they will not be drawn into comments as to why the three have been sent away. Perhaps to do so would amount to detraction - something which perhaps you, and some of the commentators to your blog should consider very carefully. Finally, the 'open' letters published by the NACF and the Catholic Herald effectively amount to anonymous letters - unless the names of the individual authors - "Oratory Parishioners" (?) are published. I appreciate that these people will, in their minds, have very good intentions but very many other 'Oratory Parishioners' fully support the Fathers - be they here or away - and we wish them to be left in peace to sort out the problems (which occur in Religious communities as well as families). It would also be interesting to know who, by name, are these effectively 'anonymous' critics, who are damaging the Church's reputation in advance of the Pope's visit and Cardinal Newman's Beatification.

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Auricularis said...

Why don't we assume that it is the Fathers of the Oratory that have told the truth all along: that Fr Dermot and Fr Philip and Bro Lewis are away for entirely internal matters: that they are not necessarily the "three humble Holy Men" that you have stated, but ordinary clergy with flaws, and good points, like others?

The problem is Mary, Jack Valero stated in his radio show interview in Birmingham, that the three priests in question have "done nothing wrong". So why use a draconian punishment for something that is merely an internal matter?

And just because a woman (who should never have been allowed to blog) happens to be involved, still does not address the legitimate questions and concerns of Oratory parishioners.

The only people who are damaging the church's reputation and the Newman beatification, are those who have orchestrated this sorry affair in the first place. The way how this sad state of affairs has been dealt with, stinks to high heaven and the stench is now unbearable. As I said earlier on this blog, I am pretty sure the involvement of a former novice as canonical advisor, must at least a conflict of interest, not to mention, the whole banishment of 3 priests for no wrong doing being illegal in canon law. I am no canon lawyer but someone must be able to consult one and gain their opinion.

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Sarah said...

I'm sure you would be very interested to know exactly who we all are "Mary"!

And who are you? Or should I say whom do you represent, for your comment has the feel of a composite letter?

I can tell you who I am. I am a young and faithful Catholic, a wife and a mother of young children. I am fed up with clerical bullies. Unlike the Oratory Three who have been ordered away indefinitely, I will not be silenced.

+12

Troy said...

Like Sarah I'm another faithful Catholic parent with young children and like James very, very cross. Unlike priests we have taken no vow of obedience and the Catholic hierarchy CANNOT AND MUST NOT attempt to silence us, particularly when we are defending priests who are innocent and the faith of our children. To attempt to silence us amounts to abuse of clerical power which has caused so much damage not only to the Birmingham Three but also to countless children.

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Honorius said...

Mary,

You sound just like Michael who was also very keen on getting names/sources and also made reference to defamation (or detraction by another name).

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Michael said...

I chose to comment no further on this topic for the reason I stated previously and I have stuck to that commitment, because I believe it is correct to do so.

Ted said...

Good to see that you are still reading the blog though Michael.

+11

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

What YOU need to consider very carefully, "Mary", is that your contention that Father Dermot Fenlon, Father Philip Cleevely and Brother Lewis Berry were sent away with good reason is a matter of very serious scandal, especially when I and others can personally attest to the fact that we have been assured in writing that they have done nothing wrong.

I think an apology and a retraction are in order.

+17

Yet another Birmingham Oratory parishioner said...

I'm not sure about James' friends, but it certainly sounds as though you have an axe to grind, Mary. Since I contribute as "Another Birmingham Oratory Parishioner", I therefore have to assume that your accusations are aimed at me, although I do not remotely recognise your interpretation of what I have done. I have never said any of the Oratory Fathers are liars, either those remaining or those sadly far from us at this present time. Jack Valero is nothing more than a spin doctor, and spin doctors are completely pointless in my opinion, so I couldn't care less whether his output is based on the truth or not. I wouldn't be bothering to listen to him anyway. We have no evidence at all that the missing Oratorians are safe and well, or being treated properly. That is my main concern, and my second is that I miss them dreadfully. There have been many occasions in history where good people have desperately regretted not taking action on behalf of others while they still had the chance. What right would we have to expect anyone to come to our aid if we are not prepared to help others who appear to need it? It is only three weeks since the Gospel reading reminded us of the parable of the Good Samaritan, and Our Lord asking which of the men on the road showed himself to be a true neighbour. I cannot think of a more compelling reason to ask difficult questions when someone we know appears to be in difficulty, especially when that person is a priest who has helped so many of us in the past. There is considerable evidence due to the known involvement of Fr Gareth Jones that this expulsion was not carried out in accordance with Canon Law, and that alone is a major cause for concern. I would be no less concerned if any of the Fathers or Brothers still remaining at the Oratory had disappeared, and would be saying exactly the same things, so how you can interpret my actions or those of other like-minded people as an attack on those remaining or on the Oratory itself is completely baffling to me. It is not drawing attention to things that is wrong when it is the situation itself which is bringing scandal upon the Church. Finally I can't see any point in telling the world who I am, much as you would no doubt like to know.

-6

Margaret said...

Well said Mary.

John said...

Wake up Mary.

Three good men were singled out simply because they uphold Catholic teaching (and I say Catholic with a capital C)

It's wake up time for everyone. The churchmen are interested in only 2 things - power and money.

Decent people everywhere will no longer stay silent whilst Church leaders sell out on life, family and marriage.

They can leave. I for one will not and I won't keep quiet about the deception, lies and manipulation.

The Birmingham 3 have done no wrong - save that they speak the truth - and the churchmen, like Pilot, wash their hands

+20

May Wadham said...

Stuart Reid has many agreeable qualities, including a tendency not to take himself too seriously. Although I think he's wrong on this one, it's still good that he is drawing attention to the injustice inflicted on the Birmingham Three.
Has anyone mentioned the fact the Fr Fenlon was actually Fr Gareth Jones's novice master during the latter's failed noviciate(s)at the Birmingham Oratory? And when Frs Selden and Harrison turned up in Birmingham like thieves in the night to expel Fr Fenlon and the other two, it was in the company of the same ex-novice Gareth Jones, who had been chosen as the "canonical advisor" to back up the expulsion? This is most sinister, and could easily be interpreted as a failed novice getting his revenge on someone who had questioned his suitability to be an Oratorian. The questionable way these people (Selden, Harrison and Jones)are behaving means that conspiracy theories are inevitable. The more coverage you are able to give to this, James, the better! Bring it all out into the light and the air! Keep up the good work!

-2

Balthasar said...

I don't know anything about Oxford and Birmingham, but I am well-acquainted with the Brompton Oratory. And in defence of them and their Superior, I'd like to say this:
1)Under Father Harrison the liturgical traditions of Brompton have been treasured and preserved. The 11am Sunday Solemn Mass continues to be an example of how the Ordinary Form can be the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven. Tridentine Vespers have been maintained every Sunday. The Extraordinary Form of Mass is celebrated publicly every day in addition to the reformed rites by all of the priests.
2) If memory serves correctly, under Father Napier's regime it was common to hear Eucharistic Prayers II, II and IV at Sunday High Mass. Under Father Harrison's influence, the Roman Canon is now employed exclusively.
3) On Father Harrison's "watch" as Superior at least five good young men (all inspiring and orthodox) have been encouraged to join the Oratory, been ordained and persevered in their vocation there. And there is an excellent student there whose ordination is planned for soon.
4) Full-blooded Catholic preaching on Faith and Morals is the norm at the London Oratory, from all of the priests without exception. I don't recall ever hearing anything "suspect" issuing from from the lectern in that church, and I go every sunday when in London.

So I very much doubt that Father Harrison is part of any conspiracy to undermine the work of the Church or the Oratory. And if the Brompton Oratory priests have declined to speak out on behalf of their opposite numbers in Birmingham who have been sent away, I can only respect their discretion. All Power to the London Oratory!

Ted said...

Sounds a trifle like "I'm all right Jack".

Auricualris said...

Several errors in Balthars post:

1. The Vespers at the Oratory are not strictly "Tridentine" for a start. Where the calendars differ the ordinary form feast will usually take precedence. I have seen this glaring anomaly with the feast of Christ the King for example. This is not Fr. Harrison's doing but F. Napier who copied the Fontgombault tradition before they went old rite.

2. There are at least two fathers who use other Eucharistic prayers than the Roman canon at the so-called high mass. Again I know this to be true because I have been present when such a priest was the celebrant. The 11am solemn mass may well be aesthetically pleasing to the eye but actually violates some of the rubrics of the ordinary form - which just goes to show the farce of trying to make the new rite look traditional.

3. A fair few good vocations have been rejected under the current regime at the London Oratory. I will not say more on this because it is private matter and need not be aired on the public domain. Just because a nice ad orientem altar is present at the LO does not mean all is well and flourishing in the house.

4. I can only conclude the above post is written by some one who is either completely oblivious to the what is happening at London or something who is purposefully ignorant.

+13

Richard Reeves said...

Mary states "Why don't we assume that it is the Fathers of the Oratory that have told the truth all along" - Put simply because they've lied. In December last year Fr Felix Selden misled us by stating that Fr Chavasse was stepping down as provost and postulator in order to raise funds in the US. We all now know that he stood down because of allegations of an improper relationship with a young man. Did he even go to the US? If this is not a lie than what is? It is because of these shenanigans that we are rightly concerned for the Birmingham 3, and have absolutely no trust, whatsoever, in any spin that the Oratory releases.

+15

martin georgeson said...

To answer Mr Reeves question, Fr Chavassa was living in Oxford as of May. The real rreason for the departure of the Birmingham 3 seems to be the vendetta of Garth Jones who was deemed an unsuitable candidate by the Birmiungham Fathers and by his former novice master Fr Fenlon in particular. Since that time he has done his best to attack them with the help of Fr Byrne who for reasons unknown hates the Birmingham Oratory. He goes round saying things like that place should be shut down and that it has no future once the Newman beatification is over with.
Fr Fenlon has been very good on faith and morals and is disliked by the lavendar crowd who control things in the English Catholic Church.
Mary writes that the Oratorian priests are such defenders of truth, but only a few are and their communities are divided. The pro life and anti homosexual people are silenced. Maybe someone else knows more about the London Oratory and it's school, but the school has some peculiar people. Then again as Fr Byrne is now in charge of the London fathers it could be that Fr Harrison is being manipulated by him to do the dirty work in Birmingham. it is all very strange

Tom said...

Martin - in what sense is Fr Byrne (by whom I presume you mean Fr Robert Byrne, Provost of the Oxford Oratory) "now in charge of the London fathers"? If that is true, it would be interesting to determine how you know it and where has it been made public.

martin georgeson said...

Tom- Fr Byrne's charge of the visitation of the London Oratory is on the web, this site in fact.
I heard he's been in charge for about a year now, that bit I got from a parishioner of the London Oratory last winter it I think. It's certainly no secret. If true, and no one has denied it, this may explain why Fr Duffield from Oxford was sent up to Birmingham and why Fr Harrison from London was empowered to send the faithful 3 away. Then there is Gareth Jones who was part of the sex abuse team in Cardiff and who has been made to leave the Oratory twice and is in cohoots with Fr Byrne. Fr Fenlon was his novice master, so this looks like revenge. Since when do ex novices take part in visitations of religious houses? Maybe it's time to ask other exnovices of Birmingham and Oxford to give us there opinions about those now in control? Could be very helpful indeed.

+14

Family Man said...

Goodness Gracious, Mr Georgeson,
I don't know WHO you are, but you are CERTAINLY well-informed. I suspect that the Oratory authorities who have been trying to get this blog closed down in the last week or so will now be thrown into a shrill little frenzy. Telephones lines between the Woodstock Road, South Kensington and Cardiff will be red hot. Please beware, Mr Preece, the Lavendar Mob ain't pleased, and are even now sharpening their nail files!

+12

Janet said...

I am just amazed that Pope Benedict could even consider walking into this hornet's nest by visiting the community next month. I think his advisers have done him a diservice, and he should keep well clear. I can only see this making the front pages for all the wrong reasons as the unpleasant truth of what has occured at the Birmingham Oratory is unravelled. For my part, I won't be visiting the Cardinal's Shrine at the Oratory - I shall continue to go to his grave at Rednal and seek his intercession there. The thought of walking into that place, knowing that such wikedness has taken place by priests would leave me cold.

Sapientia said...

I completely agree with you, Janet. I am totally disillusioned with the Birmingham Oratory (as someone else has pointed out here, we have been blatantly lied to from the pulpit as to the reasons for the departure of our dear Fr Paul Chavasse) and with the Catholic Church in England and Wales in general. Even if worshippers are not entitled to know where their Provost has been sent to and why, surely we can at least expect not to be deliberately misled. If it was not for the undisputed holiness of Pope Benedict I would not even be bothering to try to be a good Catholic any more. Whatever has been going on at the Birmingham Oratory (and Martin Georgeson's interpretation sounds horribly plausible) it is surely not a situation into which the Pope should be going, even for what we are informed will be a very short and completely private visit. Is he not going to be surprised that the Birmingham Oratory's three Newman experts are not present to show him round?

Richard Reeves said...

Whatever happened to the would be Oratory at the Holy Name in Manchester? I remember attending their first St Philip's day back in 1992, and 18 years later still no Oratory. Why is it taking so long to form?

Auricularis said...

I believe the local bishop refused to accept them as an Oratory, even though they had the minimum of four candidates. There is also an issue of the size of the adjacent house and presbytery, which is hardly large enough for a community.

Sadie Vacantist said...

One of the community told me that the local bishop hates the place.

Richard Reeves said...

I am surprised as I hear that the bishop in Salford diocese is very sound. His last vicar general was also orthodox and is now the bishop of Shrewsbury diocese. I thought the community lived in that huge 60's building which has at least 4 floors.

Janet said...

I was under the impression that the bishop didn't get on with one of the priests, and if the Oratory sent a proper superior and novice master to guide their formation he would establish an oratory. I think Fr Byrne at Oxford is from Manchester - he could go and take over there so that we could have an Oratory in the North.

-11

Mary said...

Well said Margaret!

Utopia said...

Go over to Stuart Reid & comment..Mary's already there!

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2010/07/30/let%e2%80%99s-stop-hissing-and-spitting-over-the-pope%e2%80%99s-visit/

-11

Jon said...

My impression is that the source of all of this problem is the mixture of foolishness and arrogance on the part of Fr Chavasse. I presume that the house was divided on how to respond to the scandal he created , and half the community perhaps sought reconciliation rather than removal. With the new provost being chosen from another seperate oratory have the three who objected been sent away until they feel they can give their assent which is why they are committing their time to prayer. Now is the time for all those who have recieved any spirtual benefits through the oratories to join them in prayer. Im sure he doesnt need my defence but Fr Byrne of the Oxford Oratory is incredibly committed and thoughtful , if it were true that he made a remark about Birmingham it would only because he must see that its in need of reform.

Sapientia said...

It is actually quite hard to think of anyone less arrogant than Fr Paul Chavasse.

Honorius said...

"have the three who objected been sent away until they feel they can give their assent"

Presumably the above is an ironic comment bearing in mind that the entire dispute centres on Cardinal Newman - the great promoter of conscience?

If in conscience, they remain unable to give their assent are they to remain in purdah until such time as their consciences are correctly 'reformed'?

Margaret said...

Father Chavasse is neither foolish or arrogant-far from it. He is a devout, kind and holy priest who has worked extremely hard for the cause of Cardinal Newman over many years. I have known him for a long time and I certainly do not recognise the description of Father Chavasse given by Jon.

Yet another Birmingham Oratory parishioner said...

I must say, it is quite a surprise to find myself agreeing with Margaret about anything (maybe it is the other Margaret back again!) but I too know Fr Paul Chavasse to be a very kind, modest and holy man, who has indeed worked tirelessly for the Newman Cause over many years. Jon is very wide of the mark in his character assassination of Fr Paul, but nevertheless I feel he could well be correct in his assessment of why the other three Oratorians have been sent away. I am sure none of them would have thought it in any way appropriate to humiliate Fr Paul in the way it was done, and may very well have made their feelings known to their own detriment.

Sophia said...

"the three who objected been seen away until they feel they can give their assent" - this comment bears scary resemblance to the 're-education' programmes enforced by Chinese and Russian Communist regimes. So you think this kind of coersion is ok?

-6

Bernard said...

Jon has in fact guessed and got the very opposite of the truth. The three were instrumental in bringing about Fr Paul's humiliation despite HIS innocence of any real wrongdoing. They have continued to conspire to destroy his reputation for reasons of their own. Their refusal of reconciliation is a major factor in their removal. They are far from being the saintly souls their admirers portray them as, though it may be argued that two of them are being maniplulated by the third, man whose public persona is very far removed from his private one.

Yet another Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

I am afraid Bernard's comments are utterly despicable, not to say libellous. He appears to be a person with a serious axe to grind.

Clara said...

I fear Bernard's version is much more accurate than any other.

Honorius said...

Bernard's version is only accurate if it is looked at in the mirror.

Be under no misapprehension, this whole situation would not now be the scandal that it is but for the completely inept handling of the situation from the word go by those charged with dealing with the situation that presented itself at the Birmingham Oratory.

At exactly what point did it seem like a good idea to claim to be sending one member off on a US fund raising drive and then indefinitely exclude 3 other members of a community that was to be the subject of a Papal visit and expect the fact to just be overlooked?

Irrespective of the intentions of those making the decisions in respect of the Birmingam Oratory situation, they have shown an arrogance only matched by a complete lack of judgment. In short, responsibility for this mess rests at their door.

Sophia said...

"their refusal of reconciliation" - would this by any chance translate to "their refusal to toe the party line, not rock any boats and stop teaching basic Catholicism"?

+11

jon said...

I dont know Fr Paul and would not want to damage his reputation at all , however he was foolish to allow himself to develop a relationship even one that was chaste which would undermine his primary calling to be a father to his house, and maybe its harsh to call him arrogant but he clearly fell into the trap of seperating his public life from his private if only briefly surely with the idea that it didnt matter . His noble qualties are than sadly effected , would you want your son to the subject of a crush by someone in authority over them , a teacher for example?

+10

Richard Reeves said...

The current provost of the Birmingham Oratory admits that Fr Paul's relationship with the lad was "imprudent" and "intense". This sounds very much like an infatuation, and clearly not wholesome in a priest, let alone the superior of a community. If the three have been banished for raising this grave moral concern then it is outrageous, and clearly a miscarriage of justice.

Jackie Parkes said...

Dear CF News, James P,bloggers, Oratories, Lay people, clergy etc

I have been following the debate regarding 3 Oratorian Priests & one brother.

What is very clear is that people have been put in the position of "choosing sides".

This is just not "Catholic". We are all on the "same" side.

Fr Felix Selden has spent some considerable time trying to placate " both sides. "

I don't find his tone threatening - just explanatory.

I beseech as an NACF & Oratory supporter & mother of a large family that the battle ceases.

Please can we be assured that Almighty God will ..restore peace.

I beg you to reconsider any protests or demonstrations before &/or during the Papal Visit.

Whilst I sympathise with the letter writers & it has been helpful to explain concerns, perhaps just out of

Christian charity we could leave the subject for now. I know that the 4 are being looked after well.

I personally don't see this as "giving in". There are the other Fathers suffering as indeed we all are.

Can we call a "truce" for now & after the Papal Visit perhaps ask for a meeting with Fr Ignatius Harrison?

With regard to my own very public "demise" re my uncharitable blogging about one of the Fathers, I feel I & my family have suffered enough over the last few months..for me deservedly so but not for my children.

However the family are doing fine & me..I can clearly see the Oratory problem. Please note that not all of the 3 are the stalwart pro-lifers but rather like us all fallible. I know this because I worked in my own home with some of the fathers on the sex education programme, so much so that one converted to the Catholic Pontifical viewpoint.

I do think it is true to say also from knowing very well that the PP has worked tirelessly on the pro-life campaign.

Regarding the other priests I am very uncomfortable with the descriptions of Fr Gareth Jones's involvement. Again I know him too & he has nothing but praise for me & my large family & always a kindly father & shepherd. I do not think he deserves such criticism & I do think some of the accusations against him are libelous. All I've ever seen him do or hear about doing is saying Mass.

With regard to Fr Paul Chavasse I have still a very high regard for him. Which of us hasn't had a chaste. intense friendship?

I thank my close friends & family for supporting me through a very painful time of my life. I'm sure the fathers get support but is there any way, we as Catholics can all forgive & move on ready for the joyful beatification?

I think the B3 have the message we all support them, perhaps we can drop the subject & let the Oratory get on with its' business?

I know my CF friends won't desert me over this post..even if they disagree with me because they know what I've been through. I hope the Oratory Parishioners don't launch an attack on me or call me hypocritical because truly I'm being honest.

I pray for the day when I'm welcomed back to the Oratory as I haven't really settled away. I hope the priests return ..all of us only if it is God's will.

I pray through the intercession of St Joseph..

Humbly Jackie

Humbly

Mrs Jackie Parkes

-4

Phil said...

Well said, Jackie. You and yours are in my prayers.

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

Jackie says that not all of the Birmingham 3 are "stalwart pro-lifers". In the opinion of John Smeaton, pro-lifer extraordinaire, they most definitely are all stalwart pro-lifers. That is good enough for me. If you do not feel able to support the three, Jackie, that is your business, but surely it would be more "charitable" to remain silent than to smear them like this?

As for your interesting question, "Which of us hasn't had a chaste, intense friendship?" my answer is "me". I am married and would regard having an intense albeit chaste friendship with another man as a betrayal of my husband and therefore also of my children. It would be unthinkable to me. I certainly do not wish to speculate about Father Chavasse as I am not in a position to do so, but speaking generally I think the loyalty of a priest to Jesus and to his parishioners should be at least as fervent as that of an ordinary married man or woman to his or her spouse and children.

I will continue to do what I can for my dear priests and brother and will not "drop the subject". What on earth do you mean, we should "forgive". Only the three can do that and I am sure they already have, totally. There remains a gross injustice to put right.

As for your own return to the Oratory, as long as members of the Congregation itself remain banned, it is highly unlikely that you, a "mere" parishioner, will be rehabilitated. If this conciliatory message is meant to help with your rehabilitation I fear it will be unsuccessful, sadly.

-6

Jackie Parkes said...

I think I know the priests involved a lot more than some them having been frequent visitors to our home & friends of the family. I'm quite sure they wouldn't see themselves as supreme pro-lifers in the same way neither do I. The other Oratorians are every bit as pro-life & I have to say at least one of the 3 is very new to some aspects of the anti-sex-education campaign & it was me who persuaded him otherwise. I say this not to boast but to speak the truth humbly.
We must be a bit of an odd couple because my husband sees me having allsorts of chaste & intense relationships & I have to say we have an excellent intimate relationship..totally normal, healthy & open to life, one man & one woman only.
Regarding going back to the Oratory, I'm assured in good time it will happen. I thank those friends who supported me & will be eternaly grateful to them.
I learned that the "priests" are not God & that God was leading me away from his ministers to a more intimate relationship with the Creator.
From what I hear John Smeaton & Dr Tom Ward are good men but they are only men.
I learned through this incident about something I'm going to write about " The Vulnerability of Men ". I think we place to high an expectation on them.
I met the B4 almost on a daily basis for years..I know their temperaments, faults & failings as indeed they know mine only too well.
Again I say thankyou to everyone supporting me..but there is something not quite balanced about this campaign. Fr Paul Chavasse remains for me someone very special.He was my Confessor.
The issue of homosexuality..gee I've got Harvey's Book "The truth about Homosexuality" is unclear as to how it relates to the whole community except in so far as I believe all of them to be chaste.
I think it was good to air a discussion..but for heaven's sake Fr Philip would not wish or expect canonisation nor the others..would they?

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

Jackie, your own recent difficulties with the Oratory hardly put you in a position to make a credible claim to any special understanding of the Oratory Fathers and their "temperaments, faults and failings". In particular you are not in a position to denigrate any of them. I am not canonising John Smeaton in saying that he is an expert on all matters pro-life - just stating the obvious.

The three have been punished in a way normally reserved only for gross misconduct, as you well know, so quibbles about whether they are perfect or not are quite irrelevant. They are good and decent priests who should never have been treated thus.

I do sincerely hope that you and your family will be able to attend the Oratory again as you wish - but at ANY price?!

+10

Anne said...

Jackie

you are only a woman -- only - and a misguided woman at that. you need to pray harder.

Rosie said...

Nope, no 'chaste but intense relationship' for me either!

-13

Joanna said...

Absolutely Jackie - well said. :)

Young adult Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

So Joanna you think that it is charitable and acceptable to sit back and do nothing? Do nothing while a 68 year old priest is made homeless? Sit back and watch as 3 holy and good men are being mistreated and slandered?.Surely this is cruel and wicked, not charitable and kind?

Sophia said...

Re the "Vulnerability of Men" - I'm sure there are plenty of nice feminist blogs you could contribute to but this comment is totally out of place and irrelevant. Please stop wasting our time.

+14

John said...

And just what makes you think we are all on the same side? The same side of what?

Let me educate you.

The Bishops and Cardinals will utterly destroy anyone and anything that questions their presumed superiority and intellectual authority.

To a man, they will stamp on any good Catholic who dares to speak up in defence of life, family and marriage. In particular, they will label, as fundamentalist and more Catholic than the Catholic Church, those who speak out against the imposed (with Churchmen consent) sex education policy in Catholic schools.

They have no bother giving public support, in the name of good Catholics, to the gay agenda, women priests, civil partnerships and the removal of parental rights as first teachers, educators and protectors of their children, nor do they have any bother promoting sex educaion, condoms or limited abortion in Catholic schools = even to 5 year olds. Now that is what I call child abuse!!

They do political deals to preserve their ivory towers, maintain their influence and even abandon the defenceless and voiceless pre implanted child embryo to secure money and power and protect their asses and assets.

They sideline Catholics - note the capital C.

They put in position their fellow liberals to represent them publicly, such as catholic voices, and then use the public airwaves to send out the wishy washy PC agenda.

I very much doubt that they believe in the real presence - if they did they would crawl back under the stones from whence they came.

They are a disgrace. They want to keep us in the dark because that;s where they can do their dirty deeds in secret.

So what do you mean by "we are all on the same side".

They keep you ignorant and ill informed whilst they carry out their political duties.

They don't even tell lies they tell half lies.

And it goes all the way to Rome.

Of course should you choose to stay in the dark you will remain blissfully ignorant - just they way they want you.

We are called to defend our faith - I never thought we would be defending it from our own leaders - but defend it I will. Time for them to leave, if they don't want to uphold the faith, get out of the upper room, cast off a few of their riches and speak the word they have long forgotten - TRUTH

But you know what - the Church belongs to the people not the churchmen.

+10

Honorius said...

John is spot on. In short, what we have is schism.

Schism is not a nice word but let's be honest about it. There is division and the fracture lines are very apparent to anyone who cares to look. You cannot reconcile the CES and "who knows what's down the road" with Humanae Vitae.

+11

Anne said...

John has hit the nail on the head. He obviously has had dealings with Bishops and Cardinals and by the sound of it, those in Rome. Every word he wrote is TRUE. Like it or not it is decision time.

epsilon said...

Powerful stuff, John, but as shadowlands might say - should we not be trying to convert them back from within? Many of you may have been good and faithful Catholics all your lives, but some of us were on the wrong 'side' for a while or maybe even a very long while. If you ask me the church as a whole, both laity and hierarchy, the vast majority of us, have been on the wrong side for a very long time, but the ten just men have helped to save us, and certainly honest and humble prayers by people we mightn't even know have helped many of us back to the Light, to truly see and understand that Love is a person, and His sacrifice is key.

-1

Sarah said...

This is an excellent analysis.

+10

Troy said...

Dear Jackie Parkes, as an NACF member and a supporter of the Oratory 3 I request the following: 1) that the Three be returned to their homes immediately AS THEY HAVE DONE NO WRONG, 2) that vociferous clerical and lay support be given them and 3) that a public apology be made to them by those Oratorians responsible for their mistreatment. Only when this has been done can true peace be restored. The attitude 'let's just say nothing about it and everyone will be happy' perpetuates the scandal. The scandal can only be resolved when the Three are returned and their good reputations restored.

Fiorella said...

Thank you for that post, Jackie. I hope you can return to the Oratory soon. Exile is an unhappy place.

+10

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

Yes, Fiorella, exile is an unhappy place, especially if you are a priest in good standing who is now slandered and made effectively homeless.

How can you be so cruel?

Sapientia said...

Jackie, if you do know that the four missing Oratorians are all well and being looked after, please can you tell us how you know? It would at least put my mind at rest, having made strenuous efforts to contact at least some of them with no response from them at all. And no, I wasn't asking about the background to their situation, just for reassurance that they are OK.

-15

Jackie Parkes said...

Sapientia..btw I like your posts..well look at it this way..Fr Paul's been seen in Oxford, I've heard Fr Dermot's fine from one of the monks having the advantage of his company, my friend Brett in Toronto was just speaking to Fr Philip & I should imagine Br Lewis's parents are feeding him. I would imagine from my dealings with those remaining..remember I was an Oratory Parishioner for 14 years, & the newer ones I know, that they wouldn't mistreat anyone.
The CF writers know what I've been through..the Oratory Parishioners ..some of them do.
It's just my view that the 4 can safely be left to their superiors. I'm going to get a clipped ear from my friends later..but they accept we can have differing views..the above was mine.
Hope this helps..

Sophia said...

"the 4 can safely be left to their superiors" - so everything is hunky-dory and we can stop going on about it. Very obviously we can't. As has been said time and time again the Oratory 3 are innocent of any wrong-doing and are treated worse than child abusers or any others who openly (or privately) flaunt the Truth of Catholic teaching. But let's not talk about it as they are being well looked after by their superiors. It might look bad.

Richard Reeves said...

In other words Jackie it's all hearsay that they are well, and you have no firm evidence. I for one won't be giving up on the battle to see that justice is done for the Birmingham three! It wasn't so long ago that you were banished from the Birmingham Oratory, and even threatened with an ASBO - are you now saying that you deserved that? that is was a just decision? We rallied behing you then - are you now saying that was all in vain - and you got what you deserved?

+13

Disillusioned Oratory Parishioner said...

An analysis of the comments on one or two of the posts would lead me to believe the pleadings are totally altruistic - however I am not convinced. As Richard states many of the observations are based purely on hearsay and lacking in substantive evidence. If everything is OK why is it necessary for the parents of Br Lewis to be feeding him??? Richard, I admire the courage of your convictions and your tenacity in continuing to ensure justice is done

-20

shadowlands(occasional visitor to, and fan of, bacon sarnies after the twelve o'clock Mass at the B,ham Oratory said...

I think Jackie has made the best comment, to pour healing oils over this very sad build up to the Pope's visit. I will pray for peace to be established and reign in this situation.

I also would like to encourage and applaud James and his wife for all their wonderful works within the Church. What an example for our young families!! Well done, the pair o'yee!!

+11

Anne said...

There is absolutely no benefit in pouring oil over troubled waters. It is better to drown (literally if necessary)our Church leaders in the waters of Baptism and Confirmation - maybe then they will speak the Truth.

Too many bacon sarnies has clouded your judgement.

These 3 Good Men were the sacrificial lambs - just as the pre implanted embryo is.

BA S said...

I have been following this situation from a distance.

As Jackie has said, i think a time of quiteness and prayer is called for. The evil one is stirring up agitation and disunity amongst Catholics. Can you not see how he and his fallen angels are rejoicing becasue of the division casued.

But now is a time to heal. Wrongs happen, it is a fact of life due to the fall of man. But the Pope is coming to visit. Let us be sielnt and pray, pray long and hard.

Pray that this disunity be healed, not just within the oratory but in england as a whole. would it not be wonderful if the rift between the RC Church and the Anglicans came to an end? Are we praying for this?

They will know we are Christians by our love.

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

I don't think Jackie is arguing for a time of "quietness": see the length of her recent posts!

Yes we must pray. Yes they will know we are Christians by our love.

Love above all protects Christ's "little ones" and does not turn a blind and pietistic eye.

Richard Reeves said...

BA - how does a boil heal if it is not lanced? How can a doctor heal a patient if they refuse to show the wound? How can there be unity and tranquility without justice? Now is the time to sort this out and for justice to prevail. I only know Fr Fenlon, and can assure you that the man is saintly. To cover it all up till the Holy Father has gone is just dishonest. Besides, it's too late for that now - the media have whiff of this and I can assure you that the headlines won't be "Pope beatifies Cardinal Newman" but something far more sinister. All the reason to get the truth out into the open now before the event, and limit the damage.

-1

Margaret said...

Richard, do you realise that going on ad infinitum on this subject is extremely upsetting for the Oratory parishioners, the vast majority of whom are very upset at the absence of the former provost and the others but have chosen to pray for all concerned instead of putting a lot of inaccuracies into the public domain. Please also have some regard for the rest of the Community who have enough on their plates without a group of ill-informed people banging on about what they think they know when in fact they know absolutely nothing. Oratorian domestic business is just that-would you care to have your family life plastered all over the internet? I rather suspect that the answer is "NO".

Richard Reeves said...

Margaret - it may well be upsetting for you as a parishoner. But imagine if you came home, and your husband had been ordered away, you were not told why, or when you would see him again. I imagine that you would be more than upset! I certainly have not said anything that is not already in the public forum. This is what we have so for, for the record -
1) Fr Chavasse is stepping down as provost and postulator to raise funds in the US (Source - Fr Felis Seddon Cong. Orat).
2) Fr Chavasse formed an chaste but intense friendship with a young man,aged 20 which the Oratory fathers thought to be imprudent - he stepped down to allow an investigation (i.e not raise funds in the US) (source - Oratory spokesman)
3) The Birmingham three have been ordered to spend time time in seperate monastaries and pray and pray “indefinitely" (soure Oratory spokesman)
4) The Birmingham three "have done nothing wrong" ( source - Jack Valero interview on BBC Midlands)

How any reasonable man can not see the lies, and inconsistencies in the above statements beggars belief. To brush it all under the "internal affairs" carpet is not acceptable - no matter whether it may cause upset. The three must be vindicated and brought home before the Holy Father visits thier community - nothing else will do!

Margaret said...

Would that my husband were still alive. Why are we as Oratory parishioners not allowed to ask for our priests to be left alone, and for our former provost to be treated with respect by people who obviously do not know him as well as his parishioners do, as he has done nothing wrong(source Oratory spokesman)?

Richard Reeves said...

Margaret at least you understand the pain of loosing a dear one. However, to say that Fr Chavasse did nothing wrong is not entirely true. It was not right for a middle aged man, let alone a priest, to form such an intense, albeit chase relationship with a younger man. This sad happening has caused great scandal and speculation. I am sure Fr Chavasse has many great qualities, but sadly in this part of his life he made a grave mistake.

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

Margaret - while it is true that Father Duffield stated emphatically from the pulpit that ALL the rumours surrounding Father Chavasse were completely false, and that the distress of these false accusations had led him to request a period of retreat, he said nothing to address the specific allegations in Ruth Gledhill's article concerning an inappropriate infatuation with a young homosexual man, whom he had tried to get into the priesthood. As the address from the pulpit was supposedly to calm concerns as a result of that article, it was confusing to say the least.

I personally liked Father Chavasse very much and wish him well, but as a parent I feel fully entitled to a firm and detailed rebuttal of the "Times" newspaper's allegations against Father Chavasse, if in fact they are untrue. Those of us with young sons who might serve on the altar particularly deserve a full account. Internal squabbles are not my concern, true, and I have no interest in them, but my son's moral safety IS my concern and that is why neither you nor anyone else has a right to demand silence on these issues from concerned parents.

And when three others are simultaneously sent away with no explanation whatsoever, who were vocal in their defence of Church teaching, on, among other matters, homosexuality and Newman's true teaching on conscience, of-course we are concerned and as parents have every right to be.

Rosie said...

Thank you Birmingham Oratory Parishoner for the comment on this issue affecting our children's moral safety. I totally agree.

Margaret said...

I think that you will find that the allegation to which you refer was the reason why Father Duffield made the statement from the pulpit that he did.

-13

GaIL said...

I think Jackie Parkes has summed up the situation quite well.
By the way, on EWTN's "World OVer" show, an American priest is interviewed aboutt he Pope's upcoming visit to the UK and the problems, i.e., financial that the Church in the UK
are grappling with.

-4

Jackie Parkes said...

http://frjeffreysteel.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-one-enters-real-solitude-with.html

I find Jeffrey Steel's latest post helpful. ( blog de cura animarum )I most certainly am looking for a time of quiet. My post may be lengthy but although not bipolar I can assure you it took about 2 minutes to write! Indeed one of my friends..Cambridge educated! was complaining about my English!
On this special Feast Day St John Vianney, Patron of Parish Priests, I remember all our priests & pray as they say for "pardon & peace".
It is true as Margaret says that the Community should now be left in peace. I don't mean any ill-will to my friends. It's just I see things a bit clearer now.
Love does not keep any record of wrongs..& I feel very hopeful for the regeneration of the Birmingham Oratory Community. I don't think they need our help..although we could fund-raise or get on the cleaning rota! (Err leave me off the cleaning one! lol)
Happy Feast to all our priests & those in training. May Almighty God bless my sons with such a vocation.

-3

epsilon said...

Thank you Jackie for that beautiful link at http://frjeffreysteel.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-one-enters-real-solitude-with.html

-7

BAS said...

A boil heals when it is lanced, not by poking at it. though sometimes the boil may not be ripe to be lanced at that time a poultice is put on it and it is left to ripen.
This is a time to pray. Honestly the media jumping in is going to aggravate all these wounds.
We are all Christian's we need to pray for the 3 who have gone missing and for the fathers at the Oratory.
Let us do the one thing we can do, put this whole situation in the arms of Our Loving Mother. She loves each of her preist sons so dearly, she loves us and most of all our little children. Oh how our arguing and discord hurt her maternal heart.
Please i beg you all a hail mary each time before we post will be so helpful

Janet said...

BAS - your approach sounds like Quietism to me, a heresy that has been condemned by the Church. If we take your approach there would be no need for the Church to have judicial procedures, and tribunals - as our loving Mother would correct all abuses in the Church. Perhaps try telling the children who have been abused by priests that our loving Mother will take care of them! Justice needs to be done, and seen to be done, and it's for this that we should be praying. The Birmingham three have effectively been placed on adminstrative leave, a sanction usually reserved to those who are suspected of grave crimes!

Gail said...

As an American who sees this situation from the outside, I suggest that prayer is the best path to take.
When I visited the UK, I did worship in the London Oratory, and was quite a lovely expereince.
I hope peace and charity do prevail.

-1

shadowlands(occasional visitor to, and fan of, bacon sarnies after the eleven o'clock Mass at the B,ham Oratory said...

Janet said,

'Perhaps try telling the children who have been abused by priests that our loving Mother will take care of them!'

Your words seem almost to mock Our Lady Janet, why?
She will, by the way. She heals those sort of wounds, through the rosary.

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

No Janet is not mocking Our Lady but making a serious point.

The love of our Blessed Mother does not absolve us from acting to protect our children ourselves: indeed it demands it.

Ella said...

Do you guys think that no-one is praying about this? or that no-one has thought to pray about it? I suspect there have been endless prayers which will not end even if this situation does resolve itself.

Just because some people choose to speak out or not, prayer is at the center of what they do.

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

To keep quiet about this, seeking peace without justice, would be frankly cruel to the three wronged men.

They have been accused of homophobia, which is a crime in this country. So we just stand by and watch?

Why? To do so would be an abomination.

Honorius said...

Much reference is made to the importance of prayer in comments above. Whilst prayer is of fundamental importance, effective opposition to injustice is critical.

Within the definition of injustice, I include (not necessarily in order of priority or to the exclusion of many other equally important examples):

1 what has happened to the B3;
2 what has and is happening to the liturgy;
3 what has been allowed to happen in our schools with the CES;
4 what happened to the Catholic adoption agencies;
5 the failure of the majority of clerics to teach much beyond Catholicism lite; and
6 the abuses that should never have occurred that did occur (either with or without the knowledge of relevant people).

No doubt people will be able to provide additional examples of injustices.

Prayer is important. Equally important is taking active steps to protect our faith and that of our families.

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

Thank-you, Honorius, that is well summed up.

What happened to the Catholic adoption agencies affected only orphans, and the prevailing attitude seemed to be, "Who cares? Let it go". There was so little fight.

I have a heart for orphans as they have been my life and this complacent silence over the Birmingham 3 who also cared deeply for orphans grieves me very much.

I don't do "cosy" and Our Lord didn't either.

Anne said...

Too true. It time to get up and do something about it. Time for prayer and a time for action. Now is the time for action.

I have started by writing to my Bishop and telling him that I will no longer contribute financially to any church collections. Instead I will give my money to Pro Life organisations such as SPUC.

I will also contact all my friends and tell them to write to the archbishop demanding he re-instate these 3 men

-4

jon said...

is a chaste intense friendship thats homosexual the same as a heterosexual one?Hasnt Fr Chavasse been offically outed by his own order?I dont understand why tact wasnt used and the gender of his friend omitted.

Clara said...

The problem is that the concept of friendship seems to have got a bit twisted in our modern society. Most of my close friends are men and the friendships are chaste. I can talk to them, confide in them and enjoy their company; they are true friends in the old-fashioned sense of the word. Everyone has to have friends-irrespective of their gender-life is lonely without them!

Basil Roberson said...

My continuing research into the issue of the ‘Birmingham 3’ is starting to make the situation a little clearer. It appears that the issues are due to an attempted ‘power grab’ by Fr. Robert Byrne of the Oxford Oratory who has decided he should be considered as Episcopal material and is doing his utmost to ingratiate himself with, what the journalist Damian Thompson, describes as the ‘Magic Circle’. Byrne is, in effect, in control of all three English Oratories, being provost of Oxford; the Delegate of the Visitation for London; and with his friend Fr. Ignatius Harrison involved with the Visitation of Birmingham, and with an Oxford man as Provost of Birmingham. Byrne is in a position to silence any Oratorian defender of the full Catholic faith as we have witnessed with the ‘Birmingham 3’. Whilst Fr. Ignatius Harrison gave the ‘Three’ their marching orders the idea, I now understand, came from Fr. Byrne.

Student gossip I understand from Oxford sadly illustrated that ‘Bishop Byrne’ would fit in all too well with the ‘Circle’ where faith and family matters are played down in favour of the anti-family, pro-gay, culture of death agenda so espoused by Tony and Cheri Blair.

Margaret said...

Oh dear what a load of rubbish! It sounds to me as if you are conducting a personal vendetta against the English Oratories and Father Robert Byrne in particular. Father Robert is a defender of the full Catholic faith and the last person I could possibly imagine wishing to ingratiate himself with the so-called "Magic Circle". Student gossip from Oxford is just that-gossip.

Richard Reeves said...

Margaret, you would be surprised at the depths that churchmen would sink to in order to gain a mitre. They covet it more ardently than golum did the golden ring!
Well Wrexham diocese is soon to have a new bishop. Perhaps Bishop Byrne will land himself that honour, and in the words of the good and holy Saint Thomas Moore, the Birmingham three will be able to say "But for Wales"!

Richard Reeves said...

I've emailed two Rotal Judges, Msgr McKay and Msgr Serrano Ruiz, this evening to see if they can assist or give any advice on how justice may be sought for the Birmingham three. I am sure they will bring this matter to the attention of the appropriate authorities in Rome, and that the Holy Father will be appraised of the scandal before his visit.

Troy said...

A little history lesson for those who suggest keeping quiet, doing nothing and not putting any noses out of joint.

Hitler took Sudetenland - we said nothing. Hitler took Rheinland - we said nothing. Hitler took Austria - we said nothing. Hitler took Czecheslovakia - we said nothing. Hitler took Poland - we realised there might be a bit of a problem. Six years later six million Jews and millions of other innocent people had been murdered because we said nothing when we had the chance to.

Did we learn nothing from Hitler? To those who say 'let's stop shouting about the Oratory 3' I would strongly recommend watching the 1962 film 'Judgement at Nuremburg' - it is so relevant that it could have been written yesterday.

For the sake of our own freedom as Christians and that of our children we have the moral obligation to speak out and to act.

+12

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

There are so many question marks over the banishment of the Birmingham 3, not least the appointment of Father Ignatius Harrison as representative of the Apostolic Visitor.

This same Father Harrison appointed a Father David Martin to a school chaplaincy, despite knowing he was HIV positive. Subsequently several allegations were made to Childline about Father Martin. Yet this is what Father Harrison said about him:-

"The chairman of the governors, Father Ignatius Harrison, described him as a 'devoted chaplain and governor' adding: 'The apostolic work that he most enjoyed was as chaplain to the London Oratory School.

'He was very enthusiastic about the setting-up of the Junior House and looked forward each week to the Junior House Mass in the school chapel on Wednesday mornings.'"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7726/Child-abuse-probe-Catholic-school.html#ixzz0vgabOMC6

I wonder, were the complainants told to stop meddling in the internal affairs of the Oratory, just as we are? Anyone still think that parents should just trust Father Harrison to sort it all out - the Father Harrison who declined, twice, even to acknowledge our letters? Why banish three men who are vocal in defence of Church teaching on homosexuality and Cardinal Newman's true teaching on conscience, and then try to silence any dissent or questioning?

What IS going on?

And why are we not entitled even to ask?

Sarah said...

Absolutely shocking, a priest with AIDS at the London Oratory. This is the first I heard of it. How prevalent is homosexuality in the Oratory. Very disturbing indeed.

Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...

Sarah - just to clarify - it was Cardinal Basil Hume who ordained Father David Martin in 1994.

Father Michael Napier was the Provost of the London Oratory when Father Martin entered as a novice in 1988.

Father Ignatius Harrison became Provost of the London Oratory in 1996 and was informed of Father Martin's HIV diagnosis.

Father Martin was employed as a chaplain to the London Oratory school for 4 terms, by the Oratory Fathers.

A council spokesman confirmed to the Guardian newspaper on 6th December, 2000 that no police checks had been carried out on Father Martin before he became a school chaplain and governor because he was not a teacher and employed by the Oratory church rather than the school.

In the same report a Church spokesman admits that the Provosts knew that Father Martin was HIV positive before he was ordained, but it was unclear whether this information was passed on to the school.

Here are a couple of references:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1055267.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/dec/06/religion.childprotection

The Birmingham 3 stuck their necks out to protect our children, and were exiled at the behest of Father Harrison, who knowingly exposed children to a priest with HIV without informing their parents.

Is this justice? Or even prudence?

Of-course if the reports I reference contain untruths then I am sure Father Harrison will inform us so that we can offer him an apology.

+14

Sarah said...

It seems the Oratory ordains some odd balls. I remember that Birmingham Oratory ordained a Fr James Lester in the early 90's, and I recall he left the priesthood shortly afterwards and was seen walking around Birmingham dressed as a punk rocker.

-2

Sarah said...

not written by Sarah who regularly comments

Once A Catholic... said...

Fr James Lester regularly said Mass for the Latin Mass Society as did Fr Paul Chavasse, under the Ecclesia Dei Indult. At least one of the so-called Birmingham 3 is no stanger to homophobic public humiliation.

Basil Roberson said...

Birmigham Oratory Parishoner,

As well as Fr. David Martin there was another close associate of Fr. Harrison employed at the school in recent years who has a lot of unanswered questions hanging over him.

Try googling 'Papal Sex Deacon' - the same was employed at the London Oratory School by Harrison who he had known from the early 1990s after the deacon in question came to London after refusing his bishop's requests to accept laicisation.

Sapientia said...

This is truly shocking. I can't help but wonder if Tony Blair's sons came into contact with Fr David Martin while they were at the London Oratory School. Tony, of course, wouldn't have minded one bit - he was all for lowering the age at which young men could legally consent to homosexual relations while his sons were still in their early teens, so would probably have considered the Chaplain a bit of a role model for his boys.

-1

Sarah said...

not written by Sarah who regularly comments

+11

Troy said...

Before anyone can say "what has 1960's Hollywood to do with this situation?" let me describe the last scene in the film "Judgement at Nuremburg". A German Judge, Ernst Janning, has just been sentenced to life imprisonment for his part in enforcing Nazi laws. At Janning's request the principal American judge visits him in his cell after the judgement and Janning tells him "those people, those millions of people - I never knew it would come to that." To this the American judge responds, "Herr Janning, it came to that the first time you sentenced a man you knew to be innocent."

Does this sound familiar Fr Seldon, Fr Harrison and Jack Valero? You really ought to watch the film, you know.

Am I implying that those who have 'sentenced' the Oratory 3 are guilty of Nazi atrocities? Not at all. I am saying that they are guilty of sentencing men they know to be innocent.

Put right this injustice and bring them back.

John said...

Please don't hold back commenting at Mr Reid's Herald Blog.

He is in need of help - help to show him the way (out if necessary)

link below

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2010/07/30/let%E2%80%99s-stop-hissing-and-spitting-over-the-pope%E2%80%99s-visit/

song of the parish malcontent said...

Sung to the tune of Gilbert & Sullivan and the Animaniacs...
*****

I am the very model of a local parish malcontent,
My antics range from subtle jabs to spreading fury and dissent.
I'm always writing letters, spreading gossip, and petitioning
Support for my pet causes I am always requisitioning.
I'm always well acquainted with the persons in authority;
I think the priest should make my case his number-one priority.
For if he won't agree with me, or take a stand in my defense,
I'll quickly cast aspersions on his mental health and competence.
Whenever factions form, you know I'll be the first one to create
The list of who is on my side and those we must repudiate.
In short, when there's division, and when battle lines are evident,
You need to look no further than your local parish malcontent.

I'm always near the front at Mass, at prayer I'm very visible;
(Though when it's time to volunteer, you'd find my efforts risible).
I know if I were running things, they'd be much more expedient
Somehow it doesn't seem as fun to simply be obedient.
I'm full of strong opinions that I feel I simply must express,
I'm only happy when I'm mad - "High Dudgeon" is my home address.
But if, with all the dust I raise, there comes a day of reckoning,
I quickly find another place with greener pastures beckoning.
My history is littered with disputes of all varieties -
I think I've thrown a fit in every parish in the diocese.
I have a most uncanny skill for finding things that I resent.
You see, it is no wonder I'm your local parish malcontent.

I'm known for being sweet, but not as much for my sincerity;
I like to push your buttons under my veneer of charity.
When I've provoked you just enough to answer energetically,
I'll conjure all the gullible to gather sympathetically.
And yet despite this whimpering, our labored fear won't shrivel us,
Because we're not above the threat of lawsuits that are frivolous.
We're known less for our intellect than for our mob mentality
We get attention from displays of raw emotionality.
Inspiring mortal dread in those who wear the cassocks clerical -
They know they're in for trouble when we start to get hysterical.
The breadth of my complaints make them impossible to circumvent;
For I'm the very model of a local parish malcontent.