Payout in Birmingham Oratory Job Fight
Blogged by James Preece on 9th June 2012
Here we go again...
From the Birmingham Post (click here for bigger)
It's been just over 750 days since three "entirely guiltless of any wrong-doing whatsoever" members of the Birmingham Oratory were "ordered to go on retreat". We were told it was "just a time away to cool down" and they would "come back soon" though that turned out not to be the case.
The Birmingham Oratory is a dead parrot. It is deceased. It is no more. Yes, of course, there is still a big building in Birmingham with a sign outside saying "Oratory" but it is in no meaningful sense an Oratory. You see, each Oratory is an independent community which elects it's own provost from among it's own members. The Birmingham Oratory is not independent, it is ruled from afar and it's community has been scattered across the continents.
My advice to the puppeteers in London and Cardiff is this: We would all find it a lot easier to believe that the whole "Birmingham Three" thing was entirely above board, if you could perhaps refrain from unfairly dismissing your lay staff.
Reader Comments
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Daniel said...
Actually, I have it on good authority (from one of the priests at the Oxford Oratory) that the Birmingham Oratory is growing steadily, so that there will soon be (God willing) four novices and a deacon (which I think outnumbers the ordained priests at the moment).
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Salisbury John said...
and no doubt all of them hand piucked to say or preach no strong statements - and to be dutiful sons of the nuChurch paradigm.
the so called "medicinal" punitive measures endured by Fr Dermot Fenlon in particular have been iniquitous to say the least for such measures [being forced to reside far away in a place not your home close to supportive networks and stripped of faculties to publicly celebrate the Sacraments] are normally reserved for those who are guilty of the most heinous offences against charity, justice and the clerical state. The institutional violence and lyging meted out against this good priest are utterly Cromwellian.
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Norwegian Blue said...
Daniel is right. The Birmingham Oratory has two novices, one postulant and another to join shortly. There is also a diaconate ordination in July, which presumably means there will be an ordination to the priesthood next summer.
I'm afraid the really "inconvenient" fact to many people is that the Birmingham Oratory is in a better state than its been for some time.
The parrot has twitched and is very much alive!
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Jeff Cheesecake said...
Well if it has the word 'digestive' written on it, it's the right way up, if not, you got yourself an upside down biscuit catastrophe with no obvious solution.
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Georgius said...
Anyone with any knowledge of the history of religious communities knows the ups and downs to which they are prone. There are now 84 Oratories worldwide - some of them flourishing, some very weak, some (eg Pittsburgh) rebuilding after their Provost walked out a couple of years ago. With regard to Birmingham I would say wait and see. The current situation with an absentee Provost cannot last for ever - as soon as possible I am sure normal governance will be restored. The fact that there is to be an ordination of a deacon in July - a man who has weathered the current storm - and two new novices, plus two more, please God, before the autumn, is a wonderful sign of hope. The moving ceremonies for Corpus Christi, the magnificent procession of the Blessed Sacrament through the streets on Pentecost Sunday, the huge numbers going to confession.....far from dead I would say!!
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Ex Oratory Parishioner said...
I hear from London that this is just the beginning of the sackings. Many old retainers are for the chop - getting rid off all those who have supported Fr Dermot and Fr Guy, who has also been pushed out by the new regime.
I don't go to the Oratory any more with its rulers in London and Cardiff and their puppet inside.
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Clara said...
I find James' description of the Birmingham Oratory most offensive. Blogs like his only serve to distort facts and stir up bitterness in people who feel that they have an axe to grind. Daniel is quite right in saying that the Community is growing and we all thank God for that. I do not think that any member of the Birmingham Oratory whether priest, brother or novice, is deterred from speaking out on important matters of faith and morals.
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The Observer said...
I can't find any distortion in any part of James's blog. The simple fact is that the truth is inconvenient to you, Clara. Inconvenience doesn't make the statement inaccurate. The parishioners have been lied to and some of the priests, the latest, the very capable Fr. Guy have been treated in a thoroughly shameful and unjust manner. Fact!
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Mockery of the Sacraments said...
I am not in the faith & I don't really know anything about the Oratory. LOL I always enjoy a post here about the Birmingham Oratory because it is always a lark to see how much poison there is between practising Catholics.
LOL Orangemen & Dawkins wouldn't get a look-in here!
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VOAT said...
MOTS
as the Americans would say...
Go fish!
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Mockery of the Sacraments said...
VOAT, here we are a week on. Look at all the allegations & poison vented on this page. LOL All these commenters are good Catholics!
Telling me to "go fish" is well & good but anyone can read all this bile for themselves & concede that I have a point.
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Hidden One said...
Catholic that I am, I certainly can.
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New Friend said...
MOTS
The benefit though is that whilst they are distracted by the need to contemplate their own navels they cannot do any more damage to the rest of society. So this self absorbtion should be seen as a welcome and positive thing. Long may it continue.
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Policraticus said...
Clara
I am assuming you have NO personal nor experiential knowledge of the ministrations of the good and reputable and holy priest Dermot Fenlon?? so yeah...you carry on in your twee clericalist [its all rosey in the garden] paradigm with an orhtodox gloss...
it's ok ...the moral theological and philosophical principle of invincible ignorance protects you and the likes of "Daniel"....so rest easy.... Fr Dermot via his white martyrdom is busy saving more souls as well as his own than you and the "puppeteers' in London/Oxford/Cardiff/Vienna and Rome and elsewhere can and will ever know
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Clara said...
Father Dermot used to be my spiritual director, so I think that qualifies as personal knowledge of his ministrations.
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Policraticus said...
...then you must be missing him greatly??? doesn't sound like it...
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Georgius said...
And how do you know so much? But I don't suppose you can say....people like you never do.
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Jakob Knab said...
Do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord.
Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer.
Contribute to the needs of the saints; extend hospitality to strangers.
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
(St Paul to the Romans)
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The Observer said...
The very able and personable sacristan has now been made redundant and, as a result, homeless. Whilst I'm no particular fan of Nicholas Johnston, the quality of the music has taken a noticeable downturn. As far as I'm concerned, the next redundancies must be of the current, often absentee Provost and his henchman, the twice-failed novice. The latter's track record is well publicised. This Oratory must return to self-governance without delay.
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Christy said...
I agree with The Observer . The choir used to be fantastic under Nicholas , but it is now absolutely dreadful .Why has the sacristan been removed ? The Oratory is no longer the Oratory that I loved for so many years , especially since the best priests are no longer there . Father Guy only appears on rare occasions , while Fr Dermot is still missing , and will probably never return . Even Steph , who worked tirelessly preparing refreshments , and running the piety stall , is no longer there . So many faces are now missing , what will happen next ?
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The Observer said...
I suspect that Ieuan (I think that spelling is correct) the sacristan has been made redundant to save money. Including NI and holiday /sickness pay it's probably a minimum £25k saving. The Oratory has had to pay for the demolishion of the old school building, the recent lead theft from the roof and now for losing the Tribunal case which will be a few thousand pounds as well. The latter was an 'own goal' brought about by crass management and we all know who the 'manager' is, don't we?
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The Nazard said...
I heard that the B'ham O. was being closed up - hence the deliberate instatement of hopeless people and, conversely, heaving out the genuine articles. This is exactly what large companies do when they want to close: get rid of what makes the company good, and put in useless people. It then folds in on itself inexpensively without a large outcry and the asset-strippers come in. The Birmingham O., is being wound up - company style - and the asset-strippers are about to enter.
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Catherine said...
According to the Tablet's columnist John Morrish in the mid July 2010 edition of 'The Language Game'...
'"Downsizing" is another euphemism that fools nobody. It was originally an American motor industry term for the process of producing smaller cars following the fuel crisis of the 1970s...A 2006 addition to the OED notes that "to downsize" a person, has become a "euphemistic or humorous" term for dismissing him. I suppose [says Morrish] it depends on your sense of humour.'
Or in the case of Fr Dermot Fenlon, your sense of justice?
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Concerned ex-observer said...
So who are these shadowy asset-strippers of which you speak? The holders of an obscure and cobwebbed reversion in the lands and messuages at Hagley Road presently known as the Birmingham Oratory? Or the Illuminati perhaps?
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Black Sheep said...
The correct spelling of the sacristan's name is Huon. "The Observer" is way out with an estimate of £25k. He only gets about £700 per month.
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Maureen Lash said...
I'm told that it cost £200,000 to demolish St Philip's School though.
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Tredezime said...
Of course, rather than settling with Mr Johnson, the Oratory has wasted nearly £10,000 on legal fees - plus the compensation they paid out. It does not appear to be known that the Organist was also removed from his position.
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Maureen Lash said...
The organist who offered his services for nothing, and was responsible for building the chamber organ in the west gallery largely at his own expense.
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The Observer said...
Well said, Tredezime. John Pryer, the former organist was a brilliant musician, of that, there is no doubt. To help out with the financial crisis towards the end of last year, he even offered to waive his fee but this was dismissed out of hand and he too was knifed in the back. Just what is happening and who is pulling the strings of the Provost and his twice-failed novice henchman, the Vice Provost remains a total mystery. Enough is enough! Too many really decent people, both priests and lay have been bullied out of their positions and the conduct of these unhappy events is an utter disgrace.
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Sarah said...
You said it Observer, utter disgrace. Two years on I am still baffled as to what has been going on at the Oratory but sure about one thing, it stinks.
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Tredezime said...
Lots of people on this blog know it, but won't say it: Chris Beesley is the one pulling the strings.
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Black Sheep said...
Chris Beasley? No, this is all down to the Keith and Gazza show. I don't think any of that community are worthy of the habit of St Philip. There are those throwing the stones and those who stand by holding the coats of those that throw. The people in that house are quite wicked!
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Lauda Spirituale said...
The Observer and Tredezime seem to be spot on to me. The way that John Pryer was treated, especially by Chris Beesley is a disgrace. The Oratory never seemed to appreciate just how lucky they were to have such an acomplished and renouned liturgical improviser playing for them. To have an international recitalist offer to play for free in a time of supposed financial hardship only to be turned down without even so much as a word of thanks? Terrible. Indeed The Oratory has never repaid the debt owed to John for the construction of the west gallery organ, reconstructed by him and Dr Paul Parsons and gifted to The Oratory for a token sum of a few thousand pounds rather than the quarter of a million it would have cost without his generosity. That Chris Beesley should be telling anyone who will listen that John is the worst accompanist he has ever heard after only a matter of weeks earlier praising him as a supreme accompanist only goes to show the sort of man that Mr Beesley is. Indeed even now Chris Beesley tells members of the choir that Nicholas Johnson lost his tribunal and The Oratory won, whilst John Pryer has given up the organ entirely and retired. Not true in the slightest! It is almost irrefutable that the musical standards of The Oratory have dramatically slipped recently, in spite of the considerable payrise that all of the members of the choir have recieved. "Where is this money coming from?" one must ask if The Oratory is making people redundant left right & centre, with more supposedly being planned, in the name of cost-saving? It also astonishes me that Fr Ignatius has given Chris Beesley authority over the music department over Fr Anton. A layman telling a priest what he may do in his own church? Amazing!
That in the place of Nicholas Johnson we now have Mr Rupert Jeffcoat is surely a negative move on the part of The Oratory. At the time of his appointment several former members of the choir apparently wrote to both the Fathers of The Oratory and to the CRB officer to express their concerns at the appointment of Richard Jeffcoat due to his habit of sexually harrasing young men, in some cases under the age of consent. Despite finding at least 12 more people prepared to say that they had been harrased by Richard Jeffcoat, including the sending of inappropriate images via text and email, and the evidence that he had been previously been dismissed from several former jobs due to his misconduct, these concerns were brushed under the carpet by The Oratory. The CRB officer claimed that since none of these people attended The Oratory at this time then their concerns could not be taken into account. Chris Beesley commented that at least Richard Jeffcoat was a lot of fun and that he strongly supported him. Make of this what you will.
It all comes down to having lost the services of a capiable choirmaster, an organist widely regarded as one of the authorities on improvisation in the UK, the standards of the music suffering as a consequece, a further two tribunals pending against The Oratory due to dismissals and breeches of contract, Father Guy being so depressed by the situation that he barely ever attends anymore, Father Paul suffering in silence for fear of saying anything further, Father Anton (the Prefect of Music who has no knowledge of music) pretending that nothing has changed, especially not for the worse, no sign of a return of the Birmingham 3, a Vice-Provost who has twice failed at The Oratory in the past and isn't an Oratorian and a Provost who refuses to reply to any form of correspondance whilst sitting locked away from Birmingham parishoners in London.
Truly, Daniel, Clara, Norwegian Blue, what great improvements we are seeing at The Oratory!
And for those of you willing to believe the word of Chris Beesley that John Pryer has retired, please see the link below, roughly half way down the page. He doesn't look that retired to me...
http://www.staugustines-edgbaston.org/contact.html
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rupert jeffcoat said...
I am distressed that you have referred to me with regard to the birmingham oratory - having lived in Birmingham in the 1990's I have of course played there - but it is deeply saddening that things can be said about someone 1) without evidence and 2) seemingly without impunity. Given the tenor of your article was about justice it would be more sensible of you to confine yourself to facts. I would be very grateful if you could tweet or whatever it is you do and ensure that folk are fully aware that no complaint against me has ever been upheld. I currently work in church music in London and any suggestion that there are 'issues' is defamatory.
Rupert Jeffcoat
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Lauda Spirituale said...
Having re-read my post I have noticed that I initally referred to Rupert Jeffcoat. I of course meant his brother, Richard.
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The Observer said...
Lauda Spirituale's latest posting confirms much of what I've heard in recent weeks from others. This is a car crash waiting to happen and there's no possibility of it all being swept under the carpet. Lessons have not been learned from the aftermath of 'The Birmingham Three' incident. Now, there's the liklihood of a high financial penalty and the Oratory, we're led to believe hasn't got the financial resources. Week in, week out, there's a second collection 'to meet the last energy bill'. If they can't manage that, how will they fill the coffers of Birmingham's finest legal eagles?
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Faye Spock said...
Hasn't the head honcho, Felix Selden, threatened to close the whole place down?
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Norwegian Blue said...
No, Fr Selden has not threatened to close the place down - for the very good reason that, as I said earlier, it has more novices, postulants, enquirers and ordinations than it has had for years.
The torrent of bile that we have seen on this blog comes largely from those supporters of the ancien regime who cannot bear the fact that the Oratory continues without them. This forces them to paint the situation in primary colours and to pretened that everything was fine beforehand, and everything is awful now. The reality is that the choir is not as bad now - nor was it as perfect previously - as people have maintained. Johnson and Pryer were always at each other's throats and their internecine warfare was destroying morale. Some of us miss their music, but we don't miss them.
As to the moral issue - those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.
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weary eye said...
A couple of things Norwegian Blue. Fr Felix did threaten closure. It was at the point when Fr Richard had his 'nervous-breakdown.' On the appointment of Fr Ignatius, Selden commented to them 'do as you are told or I will close the place.'.One of the Fathers confirmed that to me in conversation. A few of the comments are speculative, but the ones regarding the position of the music and the Sacristan are truth sadly. No one would suggest a choir was perfect but Johnson used singers that were up to the job, often highly trained, getting them long distance for a very tiny sum. Fr Richard even commented on how good the choir had become during his time. As re Pryer and Johnson at each others throats, well all I can say is that John Pryer made it clear that his free offer would help to save Nicholas Johnson as Director of Music and he didn't wish to work with anyone else! Excellent that new people have joined the Oratory, of course. However, the 'bulge' is alas factual.
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Lauda Spirituale said...
It was very well known in The Oratory that around the time of Fr Richard leaving that Fr Felix Seldon was speaking of shutting it down.
Whilst it is lovely that there are so many novices and enquirers you seem to have very quickly forgotten that within only the very recent past there were 7 fathers running their own Oratory. If you believe that we have returned to 'the good ol' days' then you are clearly deliberatly ignoring the reality of the current situation.
To say that the standard of the choir or organ playing now is not worse than before is absurd. The standard of the performance of the Mozart Missa Brevis at Corpus Christi was abysmal. I remember a time when it was once possible to actually sing the Creed at a single speed rather than the muddle of sound we have now and as for the mess that once used to be the plainsong propers...
Whilst the choir under Nicholas Johnson certainly wasn't amazing it certainly was better than now. That you think that Nicholas Johnson and John Pryer were constantly at each other's throats as part of some internecine war shows how uninformed you are about their relationship.
Nicholas Johnson frequently asked John Pryer for advice and assistance, particuarly regarding Vesper hymns and the uses of the tones to make their performance more effective.
If John Pryer hated Nicholas Johnson so much then why did he a - offer to work for free (as The Observer has already pointed out) in order to make the cost savings required, thereby saving Mr Johnson's job, and b - when Mr Johnson was then inappropriatly dismissed (as determined by law) then pay all of Mr Johnson's legal fees for him? Hardly the actions of bitter enemies!
That you don't miss their presence at The Oratory is symptomatic of the usual attitude that I have come accross recently there: Turn up late to Mass, tick the box, leave the church before the procession is back in the Sacristy and have no regard for the people other than the Fathers who actually make the place work. I can honestly say that I have never attended a church before that has such lousy and un-Christian values displayed amongst many in the congregation towards one another. The comments you make show you to be typical of this, that you have made no effort to get to know either of the men who have been providing that music for a combined sum of over 20 years. What a wonderful attitude to have.
I wouldn't consider the matter of child protection to be as trivial a matter as you make out in your last statement, and the powers that be at The Oratory have made in their statements, either. Does The Oratory really need yet another scandal on its plate? Have they questioned why Richard Jeffcoat is banned from even setting foot in the precincts of Coventry Cathedral? (Due to certain 'aspects' of his behaviour whilst his brother was the Director of Music) It would seem not. Chris Beesley might think that sexual harrasment is trivial, laughable and "fun". I don't and I'm quite prepared to state that The Oratory shouldn't be harbouring anybody who does. If that constitutes a glasshouse then smash away.
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Zubberdust Khan said...
Well, a bloke in the pub said that the real reason why Mr Pryer and Mr Johnson were turfed out is because they are both Protestants. And now they are throwing out the Bible College which was set up in the buildings on Hagley Road with the full backing of Fr Duffield without compensating them for the £60,000 they spent on repairing and redecorating the place and connecting it back up to the utilities. And of course the Oratory shut down St Philips 6th form college at huge loss of annual rental because they reckoned there were too many of us Muslims in it treading on their holy ground.
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Faye Spock said...
I don't think Richard Jeffcoat is a Catholic - after all his brother's an Anglican clergyman. So the Garden House guru's theory doesn't hold water.
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Poppy Tupper said...
What were you, a Muslim, doing in a pub anyway?
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Weary eye said...
Tredizme, it should not have been nescessary to 'settle' with Mr Johnston, he should never have been removed. Time and again the Oratory are finding money when required. Mr Pryer's offer would have saved the Oratory many thousands,but Mr Beesley didn't want him so Gareth wasn't correctly informed of it. The musical shambles IS down to Chris Beesley who spent almost a year orchestrating the present position. Remember that Gareth always stays with Beesley when in Birmingham. However, even Gareth expressed concern as to the appointment of Mr Jeffcoat to the choir after receipt of the letters, but Beesley managed to get him in. Jeffcoat isn't choirmaster officially. Apparently church organist. He conducts the choir all the time, Mr Beesley got his wish, that was most important. Fr Anton has 'had a word with'Mr Jeffcoat re his behaviour,so that is alright! Mr Beesley on the other hand, now considers he can even tell Oratory Fathers what they may do in relation to the music. Make no mistake, the situation is, Mr Beesley, as 'distinguished laity' advices Fr Gareth who agrees and Fr Ignatius puts a rubber stamp on proceedings. The Provost has put laity in charge. A clever cunning man abused that position and for what? A choir of lower standard paid for their silence and to lie about the Tribunal, ten grand on legal fees wasted just to ensure that Fr Guy is off the music and Mr Jeffcoat is in full charge. It was Mr Beesley who stood on the witness stand at the Tribunal and lied that he was in fact 'Volunteer oratory choirmaster' and Mr Jeffcoat played no part in it. I heard Seldon has threatened closure.As one Brother recently said 'a lot of old scores are now being settled.'
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VOAT said...
"As one Brother recently said 'a lot of old scores are now being settled.'
if that's the case....then Fr Fenlon bless him is well and truly out of it and safe at least on a day to day basis from the dysfunctional state of things and cannot be accused of being the cause.
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Weary eye said...
In no way is poor Fr Dermot to blame. Chris Beesley didn't especially approve of him and neither did Fr Duffield. Make of that what you will. Say your prayers for those who are left, so frightened to say anything, just waiting for the visitation to close.
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Zubberdust Khan said...
A bloke in the Garden House the other night said the Oratory has 8 million. So they're not skint.
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Black Sheep said...
You can view the latest accounts at the charity commission. Over £8m on the balance sheet, albeit mostly land and property. Some other shocking things in those accounts too. Like how much they wasted on Newman's tomb, the medals etc. not to mention their food bill.
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Tredezime said...
For info: http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=239857&SubsidiaryNumber=0
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Veni Creator said...
What those accounts seem to show is not only that The Oratory is wasteful & apparently very ill-advised with its expenditure, but also that this cannot continue for much longer without the sale of assets. Unless the income of The Oratory dramatically increases then another large loss must surely be expected. It's all very well having nearly £8.5 million to fall back on, but when well over £8 million of that is in property, land & investments it's had to see how things can continue without dramatic change. When the sales of assets begin where will they stop? What happens when they run out of assets to sell?
This doesn't strike me as a positive situation for The Oratory to be in in a year when they have already wasted £10000+ in legal fees for one tribunal + undoubtedly several thousand more in the settlement, have another two tribunals hanging over them, so yet more in legal fees at the very least, and have been ordered to demolish some of the old St Philip's College buildings at a cost of well over £20000. Why keep on picking fights, haemorrhaging cash, when they're already the walking wounded, certainly financially speaking? They surely won't be walking much further if they continue much further along this path.
As an addendum to the points raised by Lauda Spirituale I should say that there is also one other new expense. Since John Pryer left The Oratory all of the maintainance, tuning and general upkeep of all 3 of the organs has to be paid for from an outside contractor at a cost supposedly exceeding £400 per monthly visit (around £5000 per year), much more frequently than usually necessary due to some rather heavy-handed (and footed) playing techniques from some of the many current players. John Pryer used to do this maintainance himself at no extra cost to The Oratory, doing some work most weeks, usually before weekday Benediction. His loss due to cost saving seems to be costing The Oratory more than ever in fixing the issues caused by his less competant replacements. The words false and economy spring to mind.
This "cost saving" doesn't really seem to be happening, does it!?
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Poor Sinner said...
I am just a parishioner - a contributor to the utility bills, if you like - so not in this loop at all, but I find the informative posts of Lauda Spirituale, Weary Eye and Veni Creator completely consistent with what I have observed. It is all very shocking, but we are accustomed to shocks at the Birmingham Oratory. However, the evidence of such a cavalier attitude to child protection is way beyond shocking. To be blunt, I am pretty ashamed to be associated with the place. We have a wonderful example of a life devoted to God's service in Pope Benedict - why can't the people named and shamed here model themselves on him, put their egos and libidos to one side and get on with the jobs they are paid to do? If this is beyond them, it would be a blessing to everyone if they turned their attention to alternative careers in politics or the pornography industry.
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Weary eye said...
What an excellent and timely post 'poor sinner.' Egos have had so much to do with the mess that is now the music of the Oratory. Actually, I would say that there were times when the Oratory choir was amazing, the beatification for one. Johnson recruited singers from many cathedrals and in one case a lay clerk from King's cambridge came to join the choir. Music is central to the Oratory and Fr Guy as a qualified musician wisely choose two people that he knew would be up to the job. He totally opposed the appointment of Richard Jeffcoat (who isnt a catholic, no) on the grounds that he simply wasn't good enough. Chris Beesley had already been to suggest that Mr Jeffcoat be brought in. The choir were fairly amazing when they broadcast on Radio 3, and in the opinion of the Radio 3 producer.There was a minimum standard and yes, the credo isn't even correct now. The musical outlay is the same, with pay rises and the outlay on organ repairs, all of which have been mentioned. We are told by the non-Oratorian Vice Provost the place is 'on the edge of being bankrupt.' Yet under this regime money is thrown away on tribunals and solicitors as needed. As one lay staff member and another Oratory Father commented recently, 'the devil has reaked havoc here.' I cannot see how the place can properly recover until people like Chris Beesley are put back in their place and the Oratory Fathers run their show, with the present Provost and Vice Provost out the door.
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Lauda Spirituale said...
Well Chris Beesley is a retired civil servant who counts several active and former high-ranking politicians amongst his friends. Maybe he learnt the arts of working behind people's backs, manipulation of the facts and downright lying from them?
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Black Sheep said...
A disgrace to the habit of St Philip. The lot of them! They are simply not decent people. Mere professional Christians.
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Progressio said...
Oh what a tangled web has been woven here.
There is no doubt that the standard of singing and organ-playing has taken a nose-dive over the past six months. One has to question the relationship between 'choir administrator' and 'organist'.
Let us all place our trust in St Philip and hope that Divine intervention will soon be forthcoming.
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Jeff Cheeseley said...
Rubbish. The music at the Oratory is much better than before.
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John said...
Liturgy and music are very subjective matters - there are potentially as many viewpoints as the number in attendance. Indeed, it is my view that the music is much better and that it is executed with greater sensitivity to the celebrations, place, and the congregation. We do not go to church to be bombarded by loud and arrogant sounds: church musicians should serve and enhance the sacred liturgy and assist - not drown-out - the worshipers.
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Tredezime said...
I agree with Progressio. Why was the 'choir administrator' so keen to get the 'organist' in? Obviously the organist knows something about the choir administrator that we do not.
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Weary eye said...
I must also agree with Progessio. Whether we like it of not, even the twice failed novice turned down Mr Jeffcoat as choirmaster at first for risk of scandal.
I understand Fr Gareth commented at the Tribunal ' what he was doing was technically legal so it is alright.' Alas not in every case it appears now. He is only there as organist. You have Chris Beesley to thank for him being in charge of the music overall.
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Poor Sinner said...
Well, sexual indiscretions that are "technically legal" may be all right with the Assistant Provost, but they are definitely not all right for those of us who know anything about safeguarding children and young people. Nor, I suspect, would they be all right with the Holy Father, who has done his utmost to eradicate this kind of behaviour within the Church. And yes, Fr Guy must be brought back to take charge of the music before any mroe damage is done to the reputation of the Birmingham Oratory.
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Lauda Spirituale said...
This is a good point raised by Progressio and Tredezime. Why is Chris Beesley so keen for Richard Jeffcoat to be at The Oratory, knowing full well about his past, being sacked from every position he had ever held for either sexual harassment or musical incompetance? Why was the position never opened, although it never should have been even considered to have been open, to general applications, followed by the usual auditions so that a truly more competant person was appointed? None of this happened and yet we have no explanation, as per usual, whilst a member of the laity prances around telling priests what to do.
I'm sorry, Jeff Cheesley and John but you are wrong. The Oratory is now the musical laughing stock of the city. How could the liturgy possibly be enhanced by the current musical regime when things like the Creed are unsingable? Why do we have an organist playing at neither the same speeds as the choir, congregation or priests? Musically enhancing the liturgy should be done through building up during important moments and slackening off at other times. The current dirge throughout does none of this. Perhaps you don't notice this because you are so musically inadequate that you can simply turn off to the dreary tones, dull music choice (which, despite claims to the contrary, hasn't changed much since the regime change), wrong notes and amateurish organ accompaniment that eminate from behind the congregation?
Certainly those in the music industry in Birmingham consider the current operation and those within it at the Oratory to be a rather poor joke. Rumours coming from within the Oratory also suggest that the Fathers are also becoming tired of their rather bossy laity. Maybe, once again, change is not so far away after all. Perhaps those in the current establishment should be fearing for their jobs in the way they have made those before them fear for theirs.....
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Dick Cheesecoat said...
The music at the Oratory is brilliant. All these people complaining are obviously deaf or stupid.
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Christy said...
Dick Cheesecoat .
It is obvious from your comments that your knowledge of music is very basic . The standard of music at the Oratory have fallen so low that at times , it sets ones teeth on edge . This is not what we have been used to in the Oratory .
Bring back Father Guy to help sort things out .
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Weary eye said...
Exactly Christy. Fr Guy is the only hope for the Oratory. Oh yes he does upset people at times, but the best case scenario is he comes back and resurrects the standards of music in particular. My experience of Fr Guy is that he is the only one who will sort out the problems. The music, Dick Cheesecoat, is a problem for most of us and as Christy says it isn't what we have been used to in the Oratory.
Perhaps your comment was not serious. I can only assume so. Of course everyone has different taste but liturgy and worship is never helped surely by spending money of an apparently bankrupt church on an 'organist' (choirmaster really) with such a background and reputation and increasing the pay of a choir that under present direction has taken a nose-dive. The music sung by the choir isn't much different(apart from standard) look at the Internet listing. So sad.
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Jeff Cheeseley said...
I like the way they do the creed at all different speeds and harmonise the plainsong with full chords for every note. Magic!
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Dearie Me said...
If you had been at Vespers last night no one could have applauded the music. Deafeningly loud and insensitive accompaniment of the psalms and hymns, and a complete cock-up at the very end. I felt sorry for the Fathers and any one else trying to pray the office - which is surely the object of it all.
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Jeff Cheeseley said...
Like any of the remaining Fathers know jack about music.
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Dearie Me said...
I think most people can tell the difference between a prayerful service and a cacophony. You don't need a degree in music to know that. And my point was that prayer becomes almost impossible in the face of the noise produced by an elephant on the keyboard.
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Jeff Cheeseley said...
Well I've never been to the Oratory so I wouldn't know.
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John said...
Liturgy and music are very subjective matters - there are potentially as many viewpoints as the number in attendance. Indeed, it is my view that the music is much better and that it is executed with greater sensitivity to the celebrations, place, and the congregation. We do not go to church to be bombarded by loud and arrogant sounds: church musicians should serve and enhance the sacred liturgy and assist - not drown-out - the worshipers.
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Pogressio said...
Well,'Dearie Me' has hit the nail on the head. As there are already Rats and Weasels on the scene, an Elephant would seem to be a good addition to the menagerie. Perhaps someone could organise a choral version of 'The Carnival of Animals'
Incidentally, I've been advised that the organ-playing at High Mass yesterday was worse than abominable.
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John said...
That is very unkind Progressio. The organist on Sunday was not the same as has been in the post since last autumn - he was absent. The musician standing in is very accomplished and gives a huge amount to the choir.
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Mark Dobson said...
There’s always a decent helping of unkindness in the comments when it comes to the Oratory.
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Lauda Spirituale said...
Oh come on! Oliver Hayes is a nice man but to say that he is musically accomplished is simply absurd and wrong. His main use within the music setup has always been to cover for the unpreparedness of others regarding plainsong modes, but even in this he is considerably less knowledgable than Father Guy. Other than this he is only allowed to remain in the choir on the condition he sings for free due to his poor tone and complete lack of blend. He has no real training either as a singer or an organist and that was very much in evidence on Sunday. His liturgical accompaniment is poor at best and his piece playing is worse. His rendition of the Karg-Elert at the end of the Mass was shockingly poor for an establishment that supposedly "prides itself upon its music". That we have gone in the space of a few months from having both an associate and a fellow (as well as an Oxford MA) of the Royal College of Organists providing our music to an enthusiastic but poor amateur on the organ and an 18 year old schoolboy conducting the choir just shows how far standards have slipped. Those of you stating that the music is as good, if not better, now as it's ever been must be blind as well as musically ignorant. It simply isn't, with The Oratory now having amongst the greatest expenditure on music of any of the large Birmingham churches with what is regarded as being by far the lowest standard. Congratulations Oratory. Yet another success story to add to the ever growing list....
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Progressio said...
I am not aware of individual names but are we to assume that 'Oliver' is the Elephant to whom Dearie Me referred?
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Parishioner said...
Some of us go to the Oratory to worship God, say our prayers and receive the sacraments. Your continual whingeing about the music - as if that were the only thing that mattered - says more about you than it does about the Oratory.
You'd probably be better off going to Symphony Hall on Sundays from now on.
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Birmingham Oratory Parishioner said...
Disappointment over the fall in musical standards at the Birmingham Oratory is understandable, but surely fades into insignificance compared with the danger posed by Mr. Richard Jeffcoat and his habit of sexually harassing young men, including those under the age of consent?
(I presume the continued presence of this allegation on this site indicates that no legal challenge has been made, and that the allegations are therefore likely to have substance.)
How anyone can justify continuing to attend a church with such a poor attitude to the protection of children and vulnerable adults absolutely beats me. I became a much more sporadic attender at the Oratory after the disgraceful expulsion of the three priests, but I am drawing a complete line now, and will not attend further until the protection of the vulnerable trumps all other considerations, as it should.
This will therefore be my last comment on the goings on at the Birmingham Oratory as I will have no further information to share - deo gratias. And thanks to James Preece for his untiring pursuit of this injustice, and the consequent protection afforded to families.
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Poor Sinner said...
I completely agree with you, Birmingham Oratory Parishioner, and if I had young sons or teenage boys I would not allow them out of my sight in the Church while the present situation continues. What an indictment of the lax safeguarding regime it is that you need to keep away in order to protect your innocent children from possible harm. Although I attend every week I would know nothing about any of this if it were not for James' relentless pursuit of the truth. (I would, of course, have noticed the obvious and sad deterioration in the music, but not the reasons for it.) I am not a particularly unobservant or incurious person, so I would imagine that probably the majority of the parish who don't read the blogs remain in blissful ignorance about all these goings on.
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Weary eye said...
Of course the music isn't the only thing that matters. It surprises me that anyone would attend the Oratory that took the view of 'Parishoner' above. There are hundreds of Catholic churches with shocking music all around. The difference at the Oratory is that it has become known for excellence of both music and its liturgy. The continued complaining bears more substance as savings are not being made and yes alas Oratory Parishioner, the allegations are true but as I said before, they are known but not considered relevant by this regime. As long as Chris Beesley is there Richard Jeffcoat will be safe anyway. Remember that Chris Beesley swore on the Bible that he was 'Permanant Volunteer Choirmaster' and denied that Richard Jeffcoat conducted. I can't recall the last time I saw Chris Beesley conduct. More money spent, standards getting lower. I shall give up attending the High Mass. Oliver is actually another person suffering under this regime. No surprise as Chris Beesley doesn't much like him. He has lost his money. Nicholas Johnson felt he worked so hard that he ensured he was paid. His voice isn't too bad, but Fr Guy John and Nicholas knew he could not and should not play the organ. So. No savings. More expenditure. Years of work trashed by amateurs and total amateurs. The answer? Bring back the Pros!! How can you justify not using (as Lauda Spirituale says) Professional Musicians that cost less? I don't suppose the Provost cares? Fr Guy, John and Nicholas could possibly save the whole mess, though who could blame them if they never wished to step foot in the place again?
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Parishioner said...
How do you know that savings are not being made?
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Lauda Spirituale said...
If you actually bothered to talk to any members of the choir (although I know that that is strongly discouraged at the Oratory) then that might be a good place to start. They would tell you, perhaps not publically but certainly in private, that many of them have had their pay more than doubled in the last year in order to try to buy their loyalty. More than one of the fathers themselves have admitted behind the scenes that there are few, if any, savings being made and that the amount being spent on members of the choir alone has risen. Having already had one tribunal be lost as well as another two hanging over their heads + the costs of demolishing the old college buildings, plus the already stated vast increase in expenditure on maintaining the organs since John Pryer left......all subtle clues that savings aren't being made, surely?
As Weary Eye said, none of us are so disillusioned as to think that the music is the only reason to go to any church, let alone the Oratory, but for those of us who actually appreciate the music and I'm sure, in many cases, have an interest in it, the current low standards of music actively detract from the liturgy and sense of ceremony that we have become accustomed to. I like a Creed thaat is together enough for me to actually participate in, I like organ music that in both the pieces and liturgical improvisation is of a high enough standard to enhance the majesty and profound nature of the liturgy and I appreciate well performed Mass settings and motets that assist in seeing the beauty and glory of God. Great music is also part of the heritage of the Oratory with high standards set by Blessed Cardinal Newman himself. If such matters were considered important by him I feel no shame in being concerned with them myself.
The music is an important part of the Catholic heritage, as is quality of liturgy and the correct use of ceremony within that liturgy. These are all reasons that many of us choose to attend the Oratory over other churches that in some cases, religiously speaking at least, would serve the same spiritual ends.
To be prepared not only to be ignorant of the standards slipping, but also of the negative impact that that then has on the liturgy and the spirituality of the services, before we are expected to contribute generously to supporting it, surely says more about you than it does us...
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Progressio said...
Oh dear, here we go again! Yes, there is far too much unpleasantness at the moment. However, after two weeks of well-conducted, happy-sounding Choir,all singing the Creed at the same speed, we are once again subjected to a three-tempo rendition. Organ, Choir and Congregation all singing at different speeds.
Organ-playing has been questionable over the last two weeks but the accompaniament yesterday was diabolical
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Weary eye said...
It is a mystery to me why something which many organists have achieved with no difficulty, way before John and Nicholas, should present such a problem. One organist playing one organ for a credo.
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Baron Samedi said...
Two organists playing two organs to accompany the Credo sounds good to me. What's your problem?
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Lumen mundi said...
I have had a long association with the Birmingham oratory since attending the college next door to the Church in the 70's. I had organ lessons on the old Rushworh & Dreaper organ before it was rebuilt in 1987 by Nicholson. I am not surprised to hear of the news of the standard of music now at the Oratory. Part of the Oratory's problems is they fail to managed their financial book keeping properly. Right now this building is in need of two hundred thousand pounds to sort out the problems of leaking in the roofs due to theft of lead. In addition to renovation of the chuch floors electrical wiring. In the past the Oratory has had some very good musical directors and organist's. It seems to me the oratory fathers have lost the plot. Most of my my music friends/organist's think the oratory is just a laughing stock. It was always a joy to come here and listen to a fine account of a Haydn mass or Vierne messe sollenelle sung well in addition to the beautiful motets sung at benediction. And organ music well played without any mistakes i may add and cacophony of noise ! I have not set foot in the oratory since attending the requiem for father gregory winterton . Such a gracious man. It is very disturbing to hear of the current situation . The oratory fathers don't really listen. They could do so much to further musical standards in this fine building. They refuse to have organ recitals on 3 fine organs in the church. If some concerts were put on they might just generate some income and interest from music lovers. But they are to autocratic in their ways to listen to anyone else's views. I wish the oratory father's well.
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