French State to Spy on Catholics

Blogged by James Preece on 18th December 2012

Obviously this sort of thing could never happen in our country...

The French government will use a new proposed “Observatory of Secularism” to monitor and perhaps “dissolve” organizations such as Institut Civitas, a Catholic activist group opposing the government’s proposed homosexual “marriage” law, according to Reuters.

Reuters’ Religion Editor Tom Heneghan reports that France’s Interior Minister Manuel Valls announced the policy at a Meeting on Secularism organized by socialist members of France’s National Assembly, the country’s lower legislative house, on Tuesday.

Reuters is the only news agency known to LifeSiteNews.com to have reported on the statements, which were left unmentioned in the French press.

Valls claimed that that Institut Civitas, a group that socialist legislators have called to be disbanded for its aggressive defense of Catholic values and opposition to the homosexual political agenda, is close to “the limits of legality,” and warned that “all excesses are being minutely registered in case we have to consider dissolving it and defending this before a judge.”

Valls claimed at the meeting that “the aim is not to combat opinions by force, but to detect and understand when an opinion turns into a potentially violent and criminal excess,” according to Reuters. “The objective is to identify when it’s suitable to intervene to treat what has become a religious pathology.”

“Behold a program of radical secularist extremism, which fraudulently equates choice of life, of convictions, with terrorist and criminal acts,” wrote French journalist and LifeSiteNews.com correspondent Jeanne Smits, editor of the French newspaper Present, in response to the statements.

France’s socialist education minister has also been under fire for his promotion of “secularist morality” classes for the nation’s schools, which have been compared to brainwashing classes instituted by Vichy France’s pro-Nazi leader Philippe Petain during World War II. The proposed “Observatory of Secularism” would also be used to institute such classes, according to government officials.

“Secularism is not about simple tolerance. It’s not about ‘anything goes.’ It is a set of values that we have to share,” Minister of Education Vincent Peillon told the French press recently. “To be shared, these values need to be taught and learned and we need to rebuild them among France’s children.”

Pellion’s immediate predecessor in the Ministry of Education, Luc Chatel, called Peillon’s words “frightening,” claiming that his call for the “intellectual and moral reeducation” of French children was a “word for word the call of Marshal Petain on June 25, 1940.”

[link]

Note they are not talking about dissolving a group which is actually violent. Just one which is viewed as being "potentially violent". Institut Civitas operate within "the limits of legality" but apparently they don't have to actually do something illegal to be dissoved by the state. They just need to be identified as a "religious pathology" whatever that means...

Pathology is a medical field specialising in the categorisation of diseases - so essentially, it looks like the French state has decided to classify certain religious views as a disease. Nice.

Secularism, we now discover, is "not about simply tolerance" or "anything goes" but is in fact "a set of values" which "need to be taught and learned". Who knew?

What happens to people who share those values?

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+25

Reader Comments

Mark Dobson said...

I wonder what Avaaz would make of it?

http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/?hp

New Friend said...

I know nothing of this other than what you quote so reserve my opinion until I learn rather more. I do note though that in the piece it speaks not simply of dissolving the group, if it strays beyond the law, but of defending such action before a judge. So the intention would be to test whether the law has, or has not, been broken which seems fair enough to me as it is a course open to all.

Teaching secularism at school is something I wholly approve of as it is nothing at all to be scared of. Secularism protects religious freedoms rather than threatens them, a fact which is widely misunderstood. Just think of the USA, which is a secular country. Religion seems to survive pretty well there doesn't it?

Kathleen Lundquist said...

Hello - American here. Please allow me to say a few things in response to your last two sentences above:

- Calling the United States a "secular country" is not quite accurate; at least, it's certainly not 'secular' in the sense that the Soviet Union was. Remember, the first European settlers here were English Puritans (Massachusetts) and English Catholics (Virginia). The concept of 'freedom of religion' was enshrined in our founding documents by men who (though most couldn't be described as committed Christians) were Deists at the very least and had a strong belief in freedom, tolerance, and compassion as understood in the Christian tradition. See T. Jefferson's references in the DoA to "Nature's God"; G. Washington's frequent mentions of God and Providence in his addresses; and while John Adams said "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion", he also said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." I would characterize this perspective as a _secular humanism_ which assumes a Christian definition of terms, rather than secularism.

- America has certainly developed and changed through her 200+ year history - through her interactions with global trends and events (the Enlightenment, industrialization, Communism, etc.), through her own successes and failures. A society that was intended to be 'classless' with easy mobility between rulers and citizens has unfortunately devolved toward the creation of a permanent 'ruling class', to which one gains access through higher education, media savvy, and boatloads of money. The great majority of media personalities and politicians who run my country are interested in power and preservation of it for themselves; there's very little 'noblesse oblige' or sense of civic duty among them. In my view the present situation, simply put, is that a relatively religious-minded citizenry is ruled by an a-religious oligarchy.

- This oligarchy, having replaced the Christian definitions of words like 'freedom' with the Enlightenment/materialist/Darwinist one, have begun to flex their muscles in proposing several baldly antireligious policies of late. Have you not heard of the controversy boiling over the Obama administration's Dept. of Health and Human Services' mandate that all employers (through their health insurance plans) must make artificial contraceptives (including EC/abortifacients) and sterilization available to their employees? This means that, unless you are a church (according to their definition), it doesn't matter whether you as a business owner/employer believe artificial conception is immoral; you _must_ pay an insurance company to provide the service or face government fines. (An analogous situation: Because the government wishes to promote the consumption of beef, all restaurants [including Hindu/vegan ones] must serve beef or give customers a voucher and tell them where they can get it. Or, because the government wishes to promote the pork industry, all delis [including Muslim and Jewish ones] must make it available.)

"Freedom of religion"? Not so much. And the reason is that these politicians' definitions of 'freedom' and 'religion' are no longer those of our Founders. But don't worry; religion will survive here in America. The question is whether the American experiment in constitutional government will survive much longer.

Mockery of the Sacraments said...

Here's an article on the French govt attitude to religion from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La�cit�. As it happens, I did know that the French state has a different approach to religion to the British. I think we should bear that in mind if we are examining whether the French approach is likely to be copied here.

+11

Catherine said...

�And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigour, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time� -
Winston Churchill 1938

New Friend said...

Catherine

I don't often respond to your posts but if by this you are seeking to draw a comparison between the threat of the Nazis and a perceived threat to religious freedom, I suggest that this is rather early in this discussion for Godwins Law to apply, but it does!

+13

Sarah said...

Sarah's Law: first person to have a knee-jerk reaction to the word Nazi and raise Godwin's Law automatically looses the argument for being a totally predictable nodule.

+12

Catherine said...

as another commentator has previously written....NF (again!! yawn!) is using the 'boo word' tactic which [according to the BBC's John Humphreys] is to mark out your opponent with such negative labels thereby preventing any reasonable sounding defense of their postiion without seeming extremist yourself. It is the territory-marking nature of a mongrel with a cocked leg....

New Friend said...

Catherine

Strange isn't it but it seems to me that this "boo word" tactic is what you, and others, are employing to try to discredit me. We won't agree about it for sure, so I will leave it to the judgement of our silent friends and "lurkers" to decide. Their opinions are which matter most to me although, of course, we may never know what it is.

VOAT said...

NF saya "I will leave it to the judgement of our silent friends and "lurkers" to decide."

herein lies the true significance of his continuous and nauseating presence on this blog......

he is not alone and is NO "friend"

Tom said...

VOAT
The silent friends and lurkers are no doubt not of the mind of NF, and can see he is a lone voice crying in the online wilderness.

I only have time to pop in a few times a year, and find NF to be very amusing, as can a broken record player.
I do hope that he can stay to provide the amusement many received in the past thanks to travelling jesters etc.

I have always thought that NF stood for somthing else.

New Friend said...

Tom

I suspect you may well be right. There are many people who share my broad approach. However as they have no interest in Catholicism, and see no relevance in it to their daily lives, they will not be reading this blog. I participate in a very popular humanist forum where pretty much all the views are in line with mine. Religion is usually treated with some derision but none of the posters also come on here.

My guess is that most of the lurkers are your fellow Catholics but probably of a more modernist, reforming strain than the traditionalists who are to be found posting. The type who were brought up in your faith but don't go to Church every week and use artificial contraception.

I am happy if that is true because there is little point in addressing either those who already agree with me, or those who never will.

New Friend said...

I have done a little research on the Institut Civitas. My French is too poor to read most of it but from what I can discern they are a far right wing organisation with an agenda which wishes to re-establish Christianity at the heart of Europe. Many of their proposals are rejected by the Bishops who seem to wish to distance themselves from them. Some good information can be found here:-

http://republic-of-gilead.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/the-religious-right-around-globe.html

This blog covers the attitude of the French government, but from a different perspective.

Chrysostom said...

New Friend has now made four of the ten comments and used 23 lines.

Our Lady Help of Christians - pray for us.
St Athanasius - pray for us
All Ye English Martyrs - pray for us.
St. Charles Lwanga and Companion Martyrs of Uganda who were martyred because they resisted the advances of a homosexual paedophile � pray for us.

Phil Atkinson said...

NF
"Strange isn't it but it seems to me that this "boo word" tactic is what you, and others, are employing to try to discredit me."

You're assuming that they credit you in the first place. Not sure that you're right on that one.

New Friend said...

Phil

That's undoubtedly true but not really the point. It is not their "credit" which matters. What matters is the opinion of those with rather more open minds. I suspect that their comments say rather more about them than ever they do about me.

I do however give some credit to those who make such remarks. I am sure they are sincere and they are also consistent.

It occurs to me that the "Christian charity", which your faith proudly professes, is infrequently to be found in comments here.

louella said...

James.....someone on another blog suggested we need a Civitas here in the UK. One of the best suggestions I have heard in a long time.

New Friend said...

louella

You cannot be serious! It would be a very sad day if we ever imported this kind of approach. The last thing we need is this type of right wing aggression in the name of religion, whether it copies that to be found in the USA or France. It would be bound to further marginalise you and do no-one any good at all.

The original question was whether it could ever happen here. This begs the question of what "it" is. The general assumption seems to be some type of persecution against Christians in general and Catholics in particular. In fact, if you look rather deeper it is nothing of the sort. The French government are monitoring several religious groups of various persuasions. Not to limit their rights to worship in any way at all, but to check that their political activities stay within the law.

The "it" is therefore to ensure that the law is not being broken so "it" is already here and quite right too, unless you believe that any group is above the law just because they do what they do in the name of a religion.

louella said...

So....you are against the idea of a British Civitas, New Friend. Hmmm....must be a good idea then.

Chrysostom said...

Of the 14 comments, New friend has made 6 and has used 43 lines.

mike cliffson said...

NF
Someone using your monicker has commented on earlier threads:
"I don't have any problem with relativism. Indeed as I believe that what most people hold to be true is just their opinion unless and until it can be definitively proved, I think relativism is essential. ....../..."
"....../...The atheist knew the truth, whilst the two religious people merely held opinions. ...../..."
"Nazi science"unquote ,in a comment labelled "new friend" was used to avoid Biology 101 on single-celled organisms, let alone the humanness and individuality of a baby.
I pray the good Lord send you a wise King Cannute to take you to a British beach: as an unbetterable and unique product of the Creator, to none gone before identical, to none to come identical*, opportunity will be given.
What was Winston Smith's friend cum aquaintance who shared a cell on their coincidental arrest, praising the system and his son's denouncement that had had his own father arrested? Potts or Blot or something like that?
That we should live to see the day when a freeborn Briton defends Big-brother! Strewth!
God bless you whoever and however you are!
*BTW, that bit IS proven - so far....

Genty said...

Couldn't happen in the UK, eh? I think we may be seeing the beginning of incremental snooping with the proposal that the jobless should be monitored via their pcs to identify non-compliance.
From there onwards and upwards.