Liturgical Dancing in Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral
Blogged by James Preece on 8th January 2013
I should begin this blog entry by saying we had a great day on Saturday travelling to Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral to venerate the relics of Don Bosco. We were made very welcome by the friendly Salesians, one of whom allowed my daughter to wave a huge flag and another who quietly invited us to skip the queue for veneration if our children were getting restless.
Photography was banned in the Cathedral, possibly in an attempt to avoid a blog entry like this one... The good news is that the friendly Salesians streamed the whole event live on the internet so I can show you what happened after all:
In case you were wondering: No. This is not allowed.
The Church does allow dancing in cultures in which "dancing is still reflective of religious values" but is clear that this "cannot be applied in the western culture" because here"dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness" etc. Therefore...
For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: that would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements; and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness
[link]
Frankly, I ought to be able to take my children to a Mass with a Bishop present and not have to worry about this sort of thing.
I assume Bishop Tom Williams is on to it?
Reader Comments
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Ttony said...
I wondered if this was just a determined effort by Liverpool Cathedral to be able to look Los Angeles Cathedral in the eye.
I suppose that at least we can be certain that St Dominic Savio is praying for the Church in England and Wales.
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Lazarus said...
And what were they doing starting off with 'Read all about it' which originally was largely about Professor Green's dad's suicide? This also creates the 'atmosphere of profaneness'. (Or just simply confusion.)
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Patricius said...
Having long understood prayer as "the raising of the heart and mind to God", I find myself at something of a loss as to how a group of women of a certain age cavorting in the aisles and writhing on the sanctuary is supposed to help this.
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John-of-Hayling said...
Like the dog walking on hind-legs, the surprise is not that it is done badly, but that it is done at all. My dance teacher says that the key to dance is 'walking in time to the music'. This group were only roughly in time and hence a prime point of dance falls at the first hurdle. It was poor stuff - a Year 7 class could come up with something better after half an hour practice. What ever is the point of such a display? It is an insult.
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Nicolas Bellord said...
Good grief! What can one say? I always thought that after communion one was supposed to kneel down and make one's thanksgiving. Being distracted by women flaunting their legs just reminds me of temple prostitutes.
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Nicolas Bellord said...
And as for the offertory dance what was the woman who lay on the floor waving her legs in the air in the direction of the altar think she was offering? Perhaps she was worshipping Baal? Or was it just a re-enactment of some scene from the Book of Kings? I would be a bit worried though if Elias was watching!
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Tom said...
On the plus side, they weren't the collection of 60 plus year old ex-nuns I thought they might be!
On the minus side, who exactly thought this was appropriate at any level - let alone theological?
To my mind the actual dancing was as unstructured as the thinking that allowed it to take place. Surely something more along the lines of Anthony Quinn in Zorba the Greek would have allowed greater participation by the congregation?
Cardinal Arinze can be found on YouTube talking sensibly and entertainingly about liturgical dancing.
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Mockery of the Sacraments said...
LOL Perhaps I should change my name. When it comes to mocking the sacraments, I'm not in the same league as those ladies!
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Christian said...
Forgiveness for the young dancers who were led to think this was a decent way to honor the Lord. Let us pray for the bishop, and the people who staged this. I think there is a special prayer to say when a church is desacrated. What about the desacration of those people hearts ? Now, very seriously : the scandal is worldwide (I am writing from France). People in other countries will see this too. Terrible pity and shame for Liverpool. Scandal, profanation of the holy Church. This is corrupting the hearts and souls of our brothers, and stealing them away from Christ. And the bishop is leading. Can someone tell me what to do ? I am always uncomfortable in making public accusation, but this is scandal, and Christ is the victim. Can we remain silent ? When will this end ? Did anyone write to Rome ? Shall we relay this to create a huge and worldwide internet protest ? I am so saddened that I need advice here. God bless you, and have mercy on us. "He came to his own, and his own did not receive him". Lord, this hurts.
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Barry Taylor said...
This episode has brought great shame on my diocese. We are now a laughing stock. This is insulting the Blessed Sacrament, never nind in defiance of church law.
Why didn't Bishop Williams stand up and stop it?
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Gail Finke said...
Hello from America. That is one of the weirder things I have ever seen -- and I am talking about the cathedral as well as the strange performance. Why was the dancer at the beginning rolling around and kicking her legs up, over and over and over again? Why did the whole cohort descend later? Do you think the cathedral folks were so pleased with the Olympics opening ceremonies that they decided to create their own? What was that doing plunked in the middle of Mass? Where did the recorded music emanate from? Very strange...
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Sarah said...
Funnily enough the visitation of the relics was organised by someone who was involved in the Olympic Torch relay around the UK and also the Papal visit, where there were some peculiar acts.
Sadly I am not surprised by the dancing. The once great Salesians jumped on the modernist bus long ago.
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Sarah said...
www.salesians.org.uk/newsitem.pl?item=item251
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James said...
I think you mean here
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Richard Collins said...
Perhaps that is why the Cathedral was only 20% full.
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Damask Rose said...
No. I think it may be because the faithful have no idea who Don Bosco and what his relevance is.
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Mark Dobson said...
I'll admit to being a bit hazy on it, though it's obvious that it has something to do with Oratories.
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Catrin said...
We didn't have liturgical dancing in Cardiff as far as I know, although I missed the Mass, but I found the whole thing unedifying. http://againstthetide-cat.blogspot.co.uk/
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James said...
Oooh - a new blog to follow :)
Please do some more post on ways I can use my faith as a reason to eat food!
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Mark Dobson said...
Though you've unfortunately used the same Blogger background as me, thus highlighting my lack of originality.
Thank goodness for those minor tweaks!
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Robert Fox said...
Wherever liturgical abuse is rampant in a parish of any size... there is usually a Masonic Lodge nerby which is there to "help and support the community and the parish". Nuff said!
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Anthony Dickinson said...
Gerry Kehoe - My mantra has become never trust anyone who calls themself Gerry.
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Damask Rose said...
James
I'm sorry your family had to see that.
Me, I would have paid my respects to Don Bosco with my family and then walked out.
I don't think I could watch it.
Unbelievable.
Just when you think it couldn't get any worse...
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Catrin said...
Distressing to see:(
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buckle said...
Nothing has changed in Liverpool in the last 30 years. I came across two recently ordained priests and judging by their comments on the Latin Mass they sound suitably brainwashed by the gulag culture which prevails at Oscott. And anyone who saw the embarassing BBC documentary on Allen Hall cannot be optimistic for the future. Blogs like these create the impression that a revival is taking place in the Church.
Who are we kidding?
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Fr Bob Gardner SDB said...
Good morning
In my experience it is very difficult to have any sort of reasoned debate on this type of comment board - but I would like to make a couple of observations if I may be allowed;
- some of the comments made about what happened in Liverpool are speculative and not entirely accurate
- I am somewhat shocked at the un-Christian comments made by some people - defending the 'Church' in an un-Christian or un-Catholic manner, I cannot understand. St John Bosco once said you will attract more people with a spoonful of honey than a barrelful of vinegar.
- We can all take quotes out of context to make them fit our argument.
Thousands of people young and old are experiencing the Pilgrimage of the Relics of Don Bosco up and down the Country (over 2000 yesterday at Westminster Cathedral) - can I ask you to keep the whole organising Team in your prayers, focusing on what unites us rather than what divides us.
With respect and promise of my prayers,
Fr Robert Gardner SDB
Salesian Link
Office of Social Media and Communications
bobgardner@salesianlink.co.uk
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buckle said...
"In my experience it is very difficult to have any sort of reasoned debate on this type of comment board"
A debate which is rigged for you to win?
It's curious how this contributor goes on the offensive in the first sentence as in objectors lack reason. He then proceeds to accuse those who might question the elites who impose this type of liturgy on the majority of being unchristian.
Debate? There is none!
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Nicolas Bellord said...
I spent a year living in a Don Bosco hostel for students in Fribourg and much appreciated it! But that was way back in the 1950s. I just think it sad that this kind of liturgical dancing nonsense is thought appropriate during Mass. It would not have been then!
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Nicolas Bellord said...
Entirely off topic but rather curious! Thinking back to that Don Bosco hostel in Fribourg I googled it to see if it still existed and found this on the SSPX site:
"He told them that if he undertook their direction their studies
would be long and intense and they would lead a life of prayer and
sacrifice: the formation necessary to prepare them for the priesthood in these times. They insisted that this was what they wanted.
But where could they study? Unfortunately, nowhere suitable
could be found in Rome itself; but an old friend, Bishop Charrière, Bishop of Lausanne, Geneva, and Fribourg, suggested that
the students might pursue their studies at the University of Fribourg. Archbishop Lefebvre, therefore, rented a house at the
Foyer Don Bosco,106 Route de Marly in Fribourg, Switzerland
and established the ―Saint Pius X Association for Priestly Training.‖ Nine seminarians presented themselves on 13th October for
the 1969-70 academic year"
I wonder if the Salesians knew what they were hatching!
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Fr Bob Gardner SDB said...
Dear 'buckle'
You prove my point;
* it is difficult to have a reasoned debate BECAUSE it is a comments board, instead of a face to face discussion, and thus comments are open to be misunderstood.
* I made no comments about any objectors lacking reason - you have read that from the comments (hence my distrust of a comments board)
* Some comments are un-Christian because of the way they have been made
Please do not 'misunderstand' my comments - rigged debate? I thank God for the 12,000+ pilgrims who have found the relics of Don Bosco an aide to a closer relationship with God.
* You know nothing about me as a person and as a priest - please offer me the same respect as I am offering you.
With respect and promise of prayers,
Fr Robert Gardner SDB
Salesian Link
Office of Social Media and Communications
bobgardner@salesianlink.co.uk
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buckle said...
Well "Bob", have you thought of posting anonymously?
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Part-Time Pilgrim said...
Any correction or challenge must be done in charity and with respect. This is especially so when addressing an ordained minister. Being rude to a priest is also an abuse (in my view worse than liturgical dance which is at worst misguided rather than uncharitable)
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Mockery of the Sacraments said...
I respect Fr Bob Gardner SDB for posting his full name & offering his contract details. He's not hiding away.
James Preece asserts that liturgical dance is forbidden in the Western Church. He then shows us a video showing what James claims is liturgical dance. If James Preece is wrong then either:
A. Liturgical dance is allowed.
B. The video isn't showing liturgical dance, so it's OK.
C. There is some other explanation.
"12000 pilgrims had a great time." "These young dancers worked hard to put on their routine" "Why must you all be such miserable traddies" & so on aren't addressing the issue here.
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Jo said...
One of these posts compares the young women dancers to 'temple prostitutes'. Another expresses relief at them not being '60+ nuns'. There is a theme here which is deeply misogynist. I sincerely hope that none of the young women dancers see these comments as (whatever ones taste in dance) they are simply offensive. I am sure the nuns targeted in this comment (who typically do huge amounts of pastoral work with poor and marginalised communities) are used to these kinds of remarks. But why are nuns always seen as fair game for insults ?
I know that the response to this will be that its not about style its about rubrics. On that I probably disagree with many of you and with the Pope. The Mass is the central celebration of the people of the church and as such I have no problem with stylistic changes being adapted to differnet situations. I do not see Jesus in the Gospels as fussing over the tight rules of the religious leaders of his time. In fact the opposite. There is nothing to suggest that the Last Supper which is the only main reference point for the Eucharistic liturgy was (apart from its obviousl point of departure which was in substance not style) anything other than a passover supper which refected the norms of its day. Of course the liturgy has to be respectful. But its a man on this board who has compared the young women dancers to prostitutes. That perhaps reflects more on his view of the world than on the morals of the young women concerned (who presumably he has never met). If someone interprets a woman dancing in a disrepectful way that is not the fault of the dancer.
Jo
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Nicolas Bellord said...
Jo: I said I was "reminded". But perhaps you could explain to me what a woman who lies on her back on the floor and flaunts her legs in the air is actually doing? Would dancing the can-can be acceptable?
It seems to me that such behaviour is immodest and unbecoming to women. How does that make me misogynist?
Further I am not sure you are correct in saying that the main reference point of the Mass is the last supper - it is surely about Christ's sacrifice on the cross rather than just about the Passover meal.
You finish by saying " If someone interprets a woman dancing in a disrepectful way that is not the fault of the dancer." In my view the fault is with the person or persons who allowed or organised this dancing.
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Tom said...
Jo, I said ex-nuns not nuns. Unfortunately, there is a certain vintage of nun, ex-nun and priest that got got bogged down in some of the more peculiar Vatican II aberrations, of which this seems to be a good example.
Accusations of misogyny are easy to throw but somewhat difficult to prove - this dancing would be equally inappropriate if performed by the Liverpool diocese all male 1st IX.
The Mass is the sacrifice of Calvary not strictly come dancing.
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Simon Platt said...
Dear Jo,
This dance is "simply offensive". I'm glad that it has been so widely publicised, however.
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Mater mari said...
Jo - perhaps a little too much use of the perpendicular pronoun? Given the choice of following your preferences or those of our Holy Father Pope Benedict - well, there's no contest. Never mind the fact that liturgical dance is forbidden except under certain conditions, is it appropriate for young women to flaunt their bodies in such an unseemly manner in front of celibate priests and others? I recall something similar in Westminster Cathedral about 16 years ago in front of Cardinal Hume and the Area Bishops of the time. They were visibly squirming - I was part of the choir and had a very clear view of proceedings - and so were we.
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Part-Time Pilgrim said...
By all means condemn liturgical dance during Mass - it's not appropriate and should not have happened but let's have no more of this comparison of the young people involved to prostitutes or talk of "flaunting" bodies or anything similar. Please remember that these people were sincerely trying to worship. Those at fault are those who advised and encouraged them.
Whilst liturgical dance is not appropriate during Mass, the unkind comments posted here are never appropriate. I would invite those who have made them to remove them if this is possible. In fact I think James should remove all the comments from this blog. Imagine how hurtful they could be if read by any of the dancers?
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Jo said...
I agree. This has got very unpleasant. Please lets all try to be charitable.
Jo
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Sally said...
Dear Fr Bob,
Can I respectfully ask you if you think it is charitable to impose liturgical dance on the congregation in the Mass when it is clearly forbidden by Rome?
Is disobedience to our Church leaders an act of love?
Was it loving to encourage the young people who participated in such an act of disobedience against the Church?
Fr Bob I appreciate that you have taken the time to come on here and enter in dialogue. But also your comments leave more questions then answers.
I apologise in advance if my questions are misconstrued as anything other then charitable. I hope you can appreciate that many people care deeply about the Church and want her to be all that she should be.
Please be assured of my prayers,
Saint Don Bosco pray for us.
Sally
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Mater mari said...
A beautiful response Sally; thank you.
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Tokky said...
In a wider context, this irreverent dance pales into insignificance when compared to what happened during the "City of Culture" celebrations in 2008.
The cathedral hosted a premiere performance of Sir John Taverner's 'Requiem', and to quote the Independent, "The piece itself has a ferociously rhythmic dance as its centrepiece, which will be to invoke the spirit of the [Indian] goddess Kali, with the music taking on an Indian tinge."
A hymn of praise to Kali was sung (see CD notes for the text) within the cathedral walls. The place ought to have been reconsecrated after this abominable act.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/reviews/preview-taveners-requiem-liverpool-metropolitan-cathedral-liverpool-788465.html
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